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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List')
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 146 of 1043 (628039)
08-06-2011 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Adminnemooseus
12-02-2010 6:30 PM


How about mentioning it to me?
I noticed this is the admin only discussion box.

Butterflytyrant can no longer start topics

Far more than his share of dubious to profoundly bad new topics, including 7 new Proposed New Topics (PNT's) on July 29, 2011.

Many were rejected; More should have been; No more are going to happen.

Adminnemooseus

Added by edit:

Butterflytyrant's topic index. As of now, he has never posted to a topic he himself didn't start.

First of all, do I get notified of this?

Second, apart from the 7 to IamJoseph there are a total of 4 new thread requests. How many is my fair share exactly? I notice that you (Moose) think that the thread regarding light should not have started. There are 30 other posters, including yourself who have put forward their opinions. If that one was not worth it, then why did you decide it was worth posting a few replies? As to the others, two were rejected. Fine. No problem. You guys are moderators, if you feel that they dont hold up, then it is your right to knock them back. But if you are going to promote them, why then go back and say that many were rejected, more should have been. If you think they should have been rejected but were not, this is a problem you need to take up with the other moderators, not me. How many of the three that were allowed do you think should have been rejected?

As to the seven IamJoseph threads, we get told to start a new thread instead of going off topic.

Rule 2 in the Forum Guidelines

Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.

IamJoseph asked me to start a new thread regarding the topics I wanted to discuss. There was a lot of information. I broke this down into 7 categories.

Rule 3 of the Forum Guidelines.

When introducing a new topic, please keep the message narrowly focused. Do not include more than a few points.

There was even an active thread discussing one of these already. The topics were denied. No problem really. Cant discuss the problems with his posts in thread. Cant start a new open thread to discuss them. Knocking back the threads is no issue. The way I see it, I was following the rules as listed on the website.

Your comment about not posting on any threads i did not start. I was unaware there was some sort of rule in place that says I have to post on other topics. Is there such a rule? The day after this ban was put in place, I actually did post on another topic. What does it matter whose topics I have posted on. How many have I read? Do you have this information. I have spent hours reading others threads and not actually posted. So if i had put a few random replies on other threads you would be a bit happier?

When this ban was put in place, I had been here for a month. My first three topic proposals were inside 14 days of becoming a member. It takes a bit of time to find your feet and get used to the way a new forum works. So, a total ban from starting new posts, with no actual conversation with me and no warnings particularly when no rules have been broken (as far as i am aware) seems to be a bit harsh.

This is a ban on attempting to promote new topics. How about still letting me promote new topics, but not promoting them if you dont like them?

Is there a limit to this ban? Can i find out what rules i have broken to receive a ban? Did I miss a warning about this?

It looks like i have been indefinitely banned from attempting to start new threads without any warning that this could happen, without any notification that it could or has happened, without actually breaking any rules (I was actually following the rules).

Is this what has happened?

What else can I be banned for with no notification or warning and without breaking any rules?

This is also in the Forum Guidelines

For the most part, members are expected to figure out for themselves how to stay within the guidelines.

Have a not followed the guidelines? How much time do I get to figure out how to stay inside guidelines that are not listed?

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-02-2010 6:30 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by nwr, posted 08-06-2011 11:32 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 148 of 1043 (628045)
08-06-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by nwr
08-06-2011 11:32 AM


Re: How about mentioning it to me?
Given that you just quoted the notice, the answer would seem to be "Yes."

The notice was in the public record thread. Admin posts only. No PM to me. No warning or notice on any thread that i have posted on. no warning or notice on any of the proposed new topics. This is not a notice to me. It is a discussion between administrators that i happened to spot. See the difference?

"More than one's fair share" is very common idiomatic speech in English (including the Oz version of English). So why play dumb and pretend that it is a reference to a defined quota, when you know that it is just using a common idiom?

I know what the phrase means. I was not playing dumb (fuck you by the way). The point I was making is that it does not describe an amount.

The admins attempt to keep the discussions orderly and rational. It did seem to me that your multiple new topics were excessive, so I was not all surprised when an admin thought you had shown poor judgment.

You will notice that I included the two rules in the forum guidelines that I was following didnt you? And you did notice where I asked about rules I had broken didnt you? Judgement did not come into it. I was following the rules. And the request of the person I was debating with. The fact they were denied and the discussion that was included by the admin shows why they denied the threads. it was educational. As there are no guidelines with regards to starting a new topic, it will take a bit of time to get used to the way a new forum works. Without any guidelines or rules, it is a matter of trial and error.

I checked your first half a dozen posts. They mostly went nowhere, had no relation to creation or evolution or were new topics started by you because they were off thread topics (which is what I was doing). Isnt that interesting. It is a pity you did not have some condescending smart arse to get on your back a month after you joined up about them.

Thanks for your input though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by nwr, posted 08-06-2011 11:32 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by fearandloathing, posted 08-06-2011 12:26 PM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply
 Message 150 by nwr, posted 08-06-2011 1:13 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 152 of 1043 (628063)
08-06-2011 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by nwr
08-06-2011 1:13 PM


Re: How about mentioning it to me?
You dont think a warning would have been nice?

Or maybe a comment on one of the failed proposed threads that I was doing something wrong?

Or maybe a list of the proposed new topic rules that I can get get banned for breaking?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by nwr, posted 08-06-2011 1:13 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by nwr, posted 08-06-2011 2:22 PM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 154 by purpledawn, posted 08-06-2011 3:42 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 157 of 1043 (628134)
08-06-2011 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by nwr
08-06-2011 2:22 PM


Re: How about mentioning it to me?
nwr,

You dont think a warning would have been nice?

Adminnemooseus probably assumed that you were a decent and reasonable human with a little common sense.

Which of these things are you questioning? What you dont seem to realise is that this is an internet forum. It is a single internet forum with its own particular set of rules and regulations. These rules and regulations are for the most part, not listed and a new member has to find their feet through trial and error. That is why I have posted on mostly my own threads. As I did not want to get actively involved in others conversations without knowing the lay of the land. You with many years of involvement have an intricate understanding of the unspoken rules of this particular forum. I post on many forums on a number of different topics as well as a few news sites. All of them have a different set of unspoken rules, some have very strict rules listed. What you see as decent, reasonable and common sense may not apply on all forums. Head on over to a creationist forum and start a thread on evolution and see how long your membership lasts. You may be writing something 100% scientificaly accurate, reasonable, decent and using your coomon sense, but you will be banned because you have not followed the rules of the forum. This forum is moderated by people following their own sense of what is reasonable and decent. That is fair enough. but it takes more than a month to establish what each particular moderator believes is up to scratch. I am a member of one forum that I know would have passed all of the new posts without question. Some forums have no moderator controlled new topic proposal system at all. What you need to realise is that without a set of actual rules to follow, there are going to be people who post things that are going to be considered unreasonable. This is inevitable. You comment did not actually state if you thought a warning would be appropriate or not.

Or maybe a comment on one of the failed proposed threads that I was doing something wrong?

Adminnemooseus probably assumed that this would be obvious to you, and that you only needed a little prodding to arouse that awareness.

Again, my previous statements apply. I will add that when one of my threads was knocked back, i stated my case and accepted the result. A little prodding would have been a cooment that it was likely or even possible for me to get banned from proposing new threads if I was proposing new threads that did not follow a set of unspoken rules particular to this forum. If it is obvious that it can and is likely to happen, it should not be too much of a problem to list a set of new topic proposal rules to follow. I will repeat, every forum is different with regards to what you can get banned for. What is obviously a violation here is not a violation on other forums. So how would it be obvious?

Or maybe a list of the proposed new topic rules that I can get get banned for breaking?

It was probably assumed that you were an actual human, rather than a mindless mechanical robot only able to rigidly follow a prescribed set of rules.

I am an actual human. I am not only able to follow a prescribed set of rules. But i would think it is obvious that if a set of rules is in place, then they should be followed. Why have moderators at all if you believe that everyone is going to behave in the exact same way? Most forums have rules that they expect to be followed. If you randomly pick a thread it is likely you will find a moderator somewhere advising a poster to follow the rules. If you were advised to follow the rules would you do it?

My point, that you seem to be missing, is that I was banned for not following an unspoken set of rules. I was banned without a warning that it could occur. I was banned without a notice that I was actually breaking one of the unspoken rules. A set of rules that is associated with this one particular forum amongst thousands of forums with different sets of rules. The unspoken rules on this forum are not universal.

My ban has been lifted. I am going to take this as the warning and an educational experience as to the restrictions on starting new topics.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by nwr, posted 08-06-2011 2:22 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by nwr, posted 08-07-2011 12:44 AM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply
 Message 162 by Panda, posted 08-07-2011 7:02 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 158 of 1043 (628140)
08-07-2011 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by purpledawn
08-06-2011 3:42 PM


Re: Use Common Sense
PurpleDawn,

So when I told you it was unconscionable to throw 7 threads at one member, you didn't get the idea you were doing something less than desirable?

When I told you, that you didn't really have subject matter in the thread for others to debate, you didn't get a hint your actions were undesirable?

Yes, and yes. You will notice that I have not attempted to start any new threads after the ones you gave those comments on. You said no, I put my position accross and accepted you decision. You did not include anywhere in there that I had broken any forum rules or that I was at risk of being banned. Your replies were educational on what is considered desireable on this particular forum. You seem to have the same thinking as NWR. This is one forum, with its own set of rules and regulations. What is reasonable and acceptable on one forum can be very different to what is reasonable and acceptable on another. As there are no actual rules listed on proposing new topics and it is up to the new members to work it out, you must expect that new members are going to make mistakes. As I said to NWR, there are other firums out there that my posts would have gone through without any difficulty. There are other forums that dont even moderate new topic posts. Another thing you seem to be missing is that giving me a hint that something is undesirable is very different to giving me an actual warning that I am breaking some unspoken rule. I regularly notice warnings being given out to other members who break the rules. I dont see others getting banned or suspended without any warning and being told that you gave them a hint.

The fact that you didn't seem to understand you weren't really presenting a viable topic is probably what sparked Adminnemooseus' actions.

When the rules say start a new thread, it means make a reasonable presentation that all can participate in unless you want a Great Debate

Fair enough, consider me educated. If Moose thought that I did not was not understanding something, give me a warning.

Just say something like -
there is an unspoken set of rules with regards to new topic proposals here, I know that the rules state to start a new topic when you want to discuss a new topic, but I doubt this will bear fruit. Keep in mind that if a new member starts many new topics that we do not consider to be alligned with the flow of our forum, they can be banned from starting new topics.

or even something as direct as this -

Look Butterfly Tyrant, you are wasting my fucking time. You need to put a hell of a lot more thought into your topic proposals to get them on here. We obviously have much higher standards than the forums you are used to. If you dont get your shit together, you are likely to be banned from starting new topics.

Either one of those would have given me some warning. I would say that Moose probably felt like sending me the second one. Both would have given me some warning that a banning could or was likely to occur.

Putting out the equivalent of "Oh yea? Prove it" doesn't make a good start for a topic. You also have to realize that the moderators have been around a bit and watched which types of threads move and which ones don't. We may decide to let one through to see what happens.

One concerning IAJ already went out and it didn't bear any fruit. You should have watched to see what happened with that thread before dumping similar threads in the PNT.

I agree that the moderators have been around this particular forum for a long time and know what works and waht does not. I have been here for just over a month. I was directed to watch the othe thread and I did. It takes a while to get to know the particular way a new forum works.

Use some common sense.

Again, you have the same perspective as NWR. This is one forum among thousands of forums. The rules of this forum are not universal. The customs of one forum are often very different to the customs of another forum. It is not possible to be aware of all of the unspoken rules for every different forum. Surely you must be able to understand this. This forum has a particular environment, with its own rules and unspoken agreements. What is common sense on one forum is different to what is common sense on another forum. You may exist only on one forum and have become very used to the customs and agreements of that forum. New members are going to be like foreigners who will do things that are not in line with the customs of this forum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by purpledawn, posted 08-06-2011 3:42 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by purpledawn, posted 08-07-2011 7:12 AM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 349 of 1043 (646553)
01-05-2012 8:56 AM


WTF
I have had a look at all of Hooahs recent posts.

All I can find is Moose being an arsehole.

Why is Hooah suspended for a fucking week?

Where is the trolling?


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award


Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Buzsaw, posted 01-05-2012 10:16 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 375 of 1043 (647077)
01-08-2012 3:54 AM


Moose?
I was perusing a thread that had input from Adminnemooseus.

But all that was there is his title.

There is no info under his name, no pic, no member info, no link to message or anything. see here - Message 1

Adminnemooseus and minnemooseus also appear to be gone from the member list.

Have we lost a Moose?


Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by AdminPD, posted 01-08-2012 4:36 AM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 379 by nwr, posted 01-08-2012 5:19 PM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 377 of 1043 (647091)
01-08-2012 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by AdminPD
01-08-2012 4:36 AM


Re: Moose?
No problem, where would you like me to discuss it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by AdminPD, posted 01-08-2012 4:36 AM AdminPD has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Admin, posted 01-08-2012 11:57 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

    
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