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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List')
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 1043 (595679)
12-09-2010 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by arachnophilia
12-09-2010 8:06 PM


Re: Where are all the arachs?
i have also had at least one teacher at some point when i was in school who insisted on "period space space capital" which i only remember because i thought it was absurd at the time.

It's like the people who insist that you can't end a sentence with a preposition, or split an infinitive verb. They heard a rule, but they don't understand the rule, so they don't understand its context or scope.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 8:06 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12626
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 77 of 1043 (595700)
12-09-2010 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by crashfrog
12-09-2010 4:09 PM


Re: Whine & Cheese
Actually, I didn't add any filtering to the software until this past summer when some hackers targeted the site, but there's nothing secret about this stuff, you can find SQL hacking info all over the Internet, so if you have any questions just ask away. The basics for filtering are pretty simple:

  • For integers, filter all characters after the first non-digit.
  • For reals, filter all characters after the first non-digit/non-decimal-point or from the second decimal point.
  • For text, escape all single quotes and backslashes.

AbE: Oh, about the hangs if "drop table" is in the message text? Works fine from everywhere but work. Evidently my place of work blocks certain external CGI traffic that includes the string "drop table". The exact same thing happens at vBulletin-based boards. Why would my place of work do that? I'm going to guess that it's a side effect of their own tracking software protecting itself, although blocking instead of filtering seems way overly aggressive.

Edited by Admin, : AbE.

Edited by Admin, : Add backslashes.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2010 4:09 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2010 12:05 AM Admin has responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 1043 (595701)
12-10-2010 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Admin
12-09-2010 11:38 PM


Re: Whine & Cheese
And you're filtering everything? Username and password fields?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Admin, posted 12-09-2010 11:38 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Admin, posted 12-10-2010 12:31 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12626
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 79 of 1043 (595704)
12-10-2010 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by crashfrog
12-10-2010 12:05 AM


Re: Whine & Cheese
All CGI parameters get filtered. For example, the URL for the page where I'm typing this reply is:

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/Messages.cgi?control=replynew&m=595701

But the browser address box could be edited to instead be this:

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/Messages.cgi?control=replynew&m=595701;drop table users

Note: I didn't bother, but some characters have to be encoded - for example, the semicolon should be "%3B" and the space between drop and table should really be "+".

Now if I don't filter the "m" CGI parameter then when I look up your message in the database the query will look like this:

select * from MessageTable where MessageNumber=595701;drop table users

Oops!

So, yes, everything gets filtered.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2010 12:05 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12626
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 80 of 1043 (595734)
12-10-2010 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jon
12-09-2010 7:31 PM


Re: Whine & Cheese
I think this was fixed a while back - let me know if you run into it again.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Jon, posted 12-09-2010 7:31 PM Jon has not yet responded

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 81 of 1043 (596110)
12-13-2010 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by arachnophilia
12-09-2010 8:34 PM


Re: Where are all the arachs?
arachnophilia writes:

in any case, in reference to the original sub-thread title, there's a very famous message board with a somewhat high percentage of lowercase posts.

You're still confusing message sending, chat, tweeting etc. with writing something substantial in English.

Our new-found ability to chat and message by keyboard is not the first time technology has led to widespread abbreviation. Pay per. word telegrams often went something like this:

Arriving train 8:40. Bringing book map dog kettle.

Semaphore and Morse messages when written down are other examples.

And in handwritten English, a note for the milkman might be:

EXTRA PINT PLEASE NO CREAM - MONEY SATURDAY.

This kind of thing didn't herald a revolution in formal written English.

You will have put up individual posts of more than 200 words since returning to EvC. If the "arach" revolution is going on, it should be easy for you to find on the web ten different pieces by ten different authors of that length or longer that are completely devoid of capitals.

If you look hard and long enough, you'll eventially find them, but the difficulty should make my point clear.

If you do attempt to find them (and your claim that there is a revolution in written English going on does require support) I'll predict something. The mistake rate in the posts will be higher than yours (and that of most EvC posters), so what you've probably found are slobs, not true "Arachs".

People are reading the posts here for the content. If the poster does anything technical that's unusual, the reading brain tends to be distracted. That's why languages have formal written forms.

I'm interested in your revolution idea, and perhaps we should have a thread on it. Language actually evolves, and I can't think of a true revolution in the history of English so far. The language wouldn't go from the present capitalization to all caps or zero caps in less than 200 years. Reading brains are essentially conservative when there's no strong reason for change.

It'll be a long time (if ever) before you're able to read a print "arach" novel, or an "arach" newspaper.

I think that Moose was being entirely reasonable if he requested that you capitalize before suspending you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 8:34 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:41 AM bluegenes has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 237 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 82 of 1043 (596130)
12-13-2010 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by bluegenes
12-13-2010 5:30 AM


Re: Where are all the arachs?
bluegenes writes:

This kind of thing didn't herald a revolution in formal written English. ... I think that Moose was being entirely reasonable if he requested that you capitalize before suspending you.

i believe the pertinent question is whether a message board is an application of "formal written english", or more akin to "message sending, chat, tweeting etc".

i would argue the latter.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by bluegenes, posted 12-13-2010 5:30 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by purpledawn, posted 12-13-2010 3:35 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded
 Message 84 by bluegenes, posted 12-13-2010 4:51 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1717 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 83 of 1043 (596162)
12-13-2010 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 11:41 AM


Re: Where are all the arachs?
quote:
i believe the pertinent question is whether a message board is an application of "formal written english", or more akin to "message sending, chat, tweeting etc".

i would argue the latter.


Maybe message boards in general, but I don't feel Percy wants the debate forums to function at that level. I feel he's looking for well thought out debates, not just bar or living room arguments.

It's been said many times that this isn't a chat site and that texting shorthand is not welcome. That's why the short useless commentaries are also frowned upon.

I realize that it's difficult to use caps on some of the electronic devices today; but when one is using a standard computer keyboard, there isn't really a good reason not to use caps.

If it's in the public eye, I want my best foot forward. It's the same when I physically go out in public.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:41 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 84 of 1043 (596171)
12-13-2010 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 11:41 AM


Re: Where are all the arachs?
arachnophilia writes:

i believe the pertinent question is whether a message board is an application of "formal written english", or more akin to "message sending, chat, tweeting etc".

i would argue the latter.

I suppose this could be called a "message board", but discussion/debate board might be a better description.

I said:

bluegenes writes:

"This kind of thing [abbreviated messages] didn't herald a revolution in formal written English."

Neither did it herald a revolution in standard English or semi-formal written English.

Certainly, we don't use the strict formal English of business letters or legal documents here. Intelligent designer forbid!

But members are using standard English and sticking close to the main rules of grammar, which is why everyone but you is capitalizing. If the chat facility were still available, that would certainly be completely informal, and "akin to message sending, chat, tweeting etc.". Also, threads like the humour thread and some light coffee house threads could be pretty much "anything goes" areas.

I'd describe EvC as semi-formal on serious threads, merely by looking at what people do, not as a statement of what I think it should be. As I mentioned in another post, other evolution/creation boards also fit that description. I can't find real arachs easily.

There's no reason why there couldn't be a board discussing the topics we discuss here which welcomed casual English. It would probably be short of readers though.

Perhaps Moose just doesn't want standards to slip. Think where things could go.

slob writes:

i think U scientists R lying about EVO cos theirs no transitionals. anyway if we come from munkeys, Y R their still munkeys.

That's a two liner, but who the hell wants to read through hundreds of words of stuff like that in a post?

Then, when facing suspension, that poster might say:

slob writes:

U R biased. one evo made 8,000 posts with no capitols and U dont suspend him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:41 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 6:27 PM bluegenes has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 237 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 85 of 1043 (596190)
12-13-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by bluegenes
12-13-2010 4:51 PM


Re: Where are all the arachs?
bluegenes writes:

I suppose this could be called a "message board", but discussion/debate board might be a better description.

perhaps. but peer reviewed science journals it is not.

Neither did it herald a revolution in standard English or semi-formal written English.

i think, if you take the long view, informal communication is the factor that drives revolution in the formal. this has been the case in the past history of capitalization in the latin alphabet. while the "capitals" designed for the capitals of columns were great for carving in stone, they were difficult to write by hand in a fluid manner.

this led to rustic capitals and cursive in the informal usage, which, in turn led to uncial in the formal. informal uncial led to formal semi-uncial. informal semi-uncial led to formal minuscule.

lower-cases in formal writing exist because of informal usage. so, i think, it is perhaps wrong-headed to claim that informal communication does not lead to innovation in formal writing.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by bluegenes, posted 12-13-2010 4:51 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by bluegenes, posted 12-14-2010 4:47 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 86 of 1043 (596265)
12-14-2010 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 6:27 PM


Re: Where are all the arachs?
arachnophilia writes:

lower-cases in formal writing exist because of informal usage. so, i think, it is perhaps wrong-headed to claim that informal communication does not lead to innovation in formal writing.

The history of the development of the lower case that you're describing came from a literate minority writing and copying documents in a way which is much more painstaking and formal than our communication here. They set standards, and they changed standards over time, usually following what they perceived as practical. They were not language anarchists.

The letters did not develop from the ways in which the illiterate masses of the time were communicating amongst themselves. They did not come from casual chat. They are nothing to do with the twitterers and gossipers of the day! As I said before, because we can now chat and gossip using keyboards, that does not mean that the standards are changing for written English.

Changes in casual conversational English certainly bring new words into the written language, and can also change the meaning of existing ones. That's constant, and is an evolutionary process.

In the evolution of written English, I think I'm right in saying that the last major change in relation to cases would have been the demise of the capitalized ordinary noun, presumably during the eighteenth century. From the end of that century onwards, things seem to have hardly changed, so the standard that we read in a Jane Austen novel is easily recognizable.

So, what I'm disputing is your claim that casual chat and gossip is leading a revolution in the written prose standards. I think it's because of the fact that you can now see casual chat in print on the screen, instead of just hearing it or perhaps seeing it in the notes kids pass around in the classroom, that you've made that mistake.

How people twitter doesn't change the standard for boards like this, and how we write here won't effect the standards for highly formal legal documents, or the peer reviewed papers you mentioned.

As I keep saying, I can't find masses of arachs around the internet writing lengthy prose without caps.

Perhaps Moose should get you to back up your revolution claim by finding us ten true arachs on discussion boards that could be said to be equivalents of this one. They must be consistently making substantial posts without caps. Maybe I'll P.M. him and suggest this. The way to support your case is with evidence. Where are all the true arachs?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 6:27 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by AdminPD, posted 12-14-2010 7:10 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 87 of 1043 (596273)
12-14-2010 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by bluegenes
12-14-2010 4:47 AM


Topic
Participants,

One of the prerequisites of this thread is that participants stay on topic.

A thread has been started On the evolution of English as a written or spoken language. Please take discussions concerning capitalization there.

This thread is to discuss Moderation Procedures.

Thanks
AdminPD


Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by bluegenes, posted 12-14-2010 4:47 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31282
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 88 of 1043 (596320)
12-14-2010 11:09 AM


towards some topic
The goal, if there was some goal beyond trying to satisfy a whim of da moose, was to try to illustrate some of the problems non english speakers might have with what we so jokingly call our language. Read aloud, the paragraph in the OP is almost correct and grammatical. As written it is giberish; word salad.

Edited by jar, : wrong thread.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 1043 (596408)
12-14-2010 6:25 PM


I wonder if Purpledawn could provide examples of this:

I've noticed that sometimes you misconstrue an opponents position and are unwilling to adjust when corrected.

To my knowledge I've not ever been censured, suspended, or even warned about Rule 8 violations, though many times have I attempted to bring such violations to the attention of the moderators. I've certainly been accused of such violations but almost always by individuals who are themselves misrepresenting my position (Holmes/Silent H, for instance.)

Where people have genuinely contributed to misunderstanding by having misspoke, I've not ever held them to their misstated positions. Rrhain drops his negative modifiers, for instance, and I've not ever held that against him. It would be stupid to; you can almost always tell from the context when someone's done that.


Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by purpledawn, posted 12-16-2010 6:53 AM crashfrog has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1717 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 90 of 1043 (596645)
12-16-2010 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by crashfrog
12-14-2010 6:25 PM


Great Debate
If you genuinely want to examine cases where you have misconstrued an opponents position and didn't adjust when corrected, then we do it in a Great Debate. Just you and me.

We won't be rehashing the subject of the posts, but examining your understanding of what was written.

You have to be willing to answer direct questions and explain why you came to the conclusion you did and/or why you feel the person is attempting to deceive you instead of clarifying.

Any references you make to other posts or information online, needs to have a link. No telling me to go do my homework or find it for myself.

We can also examine posts where you feel you are being misrepresented.

Are you up for it? If yes, do you have a moderator preference?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2010 6:25 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2010 4:22 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
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