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Author Topic:   Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?
Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1 of 373 (594081)
12-01-2010 3:32 PM


Do animals exhibit belief in supernatural beings?
OriginsNet Publications
http://www.originsnet.org/chimpspiritdatabase.pdf
If they do is this evidence in favour of the actual existence of supernatural beings?
Or does it point to the evolutionary origins and causes of human belief in supernatural beings?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminModulous, posted 12-01-2010 5:17 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 12-04-2010 11:00 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 92 by Panda, posted 12-09-2010 9:40 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 3 of 373 (594172)
12-02-2010 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminModulous
12-01-2010 5:17 PM


Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
AdminMod writes:
Would you like to debate the evidence for supernatural belief in animals? What evidence might look like and try to resolve one way or another what we can say we know about this topic.
Yes. Let’s go for this. Do animals exhibit signs of belief in the supernatural? How could we recognise such beliefs? Is there any evidence to suggest parallels with primitive human beliefs? Are there any obvious similarities between the behaviour of animals and modern humans that could suggest animal religiosity of any description? That sort of line of discussion.
AdminMod writes:
And it'd be nice to see you stake out your position so people can argue against it.
OK. Prior to any real investigation of this at all I suspect that higher primates in particular may well exhibit basic signs of things like death rituals or ancestor worship. With regard to other less intelligent animals - I have no idea but I doubt it. And I don’t see how we could really tell. Does a dog bark at the moon because of some supernatural belief? I would be surprised if this was the case but I have no idea how we could ever possibly determine this without being able to communicate or examine directly comparable human behaviour.
In short I think the question posed in this thread is an interesting one, and one that I would hazard some guesses at, but not one I have formed a particularly strong position on. If it gets promoted and inspires any reaction in others then I would take it as an opportunity to consider the question in more detail.
AdminMod writes:
I assume Misc topics in evolution is where you'd want it?
I think this qualifies as a proper evidence based topic rather than ‘Coffee House’ or ‘Free For Al’ or anything like that. But I leave it to you to decide where best to put it beyond those comments.

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 Message 2 by AdminModulous, posted 12-01-2010 5:17 PM AdminModulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phage0070, posted 12-03-2010 2:42 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 6 by Coragyps, posted 12-03-2010 7:52 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 7 of 373 (594632)
12-04-2010 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coragyps
12-03-2010 7:52 PM


Elephant Death Ritual
On the basis that death rituals and belief in an afterlife of some sort seem to be a near universal feature of human religions I thought I would see what equivalents there might be amongst animals.
I found this fascinating link on elephant behaviour (see below). I quote the bit specifically about death rituals as most relevant to this topic but I found the entire link on elephant intelligence and behaviour remarkable.
Elephant Intelligence
Link writes:
Elephants are the only other species upon Earth other than Homo sapiens sapiens and Neanderthals known to have any recognizable ritual around death. They show a keen interest in the bones of their own kind (even unrelated elephants that have died long ago). They are often seen gently investigating the bones with their trunks and feet, and remaining very quiet. Sometimes elephants that are completely unrelated to the deceased will still visit their graves. When an elephant is hurt, other elephants (also even if they are unrelated) will aid them.
Elephant researcher Martin Meredith recalls an occurrence in her book about a typical elephant death ritual that was witnessed by Anthony Martin-Hall, a South African biologist who had studied elephants in Addo, South Africa for over 8 years. The entire family of a dead matriarch, including her young calf were all gently touching her body with their trunks and tried to lift her. The elephant herd were all rumbling loudly. The calf was observed to be weeping and made sounds that sounded like a scream but then the entire herd fell incredibly silent. They then began to throw leaves and dirt over the body and broke off tree branches to cover her. They spent the next 2 days quietly standing over her body. They sometimes had to leave to get water or food, but they would always return.

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 Message 6 by Coragyps, posted 12-03-2010 7:52 PM Coragyps has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 8 of 373 (594633)
12-04-2010 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phage0070
12-03-2010 2:42 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Phage writes:
What distinction in behavior can we look for to distinguish an ape with a flawed understanding of reality from one who knows full well that their belief is flawed, yet retains it alongside more accurate understanding?
How can we know when animals might be exhibiting belief in the supernatural? With great difficulty I suspect. We can only really compare with what we know about humans and human behaviour.
So how do anthropologists identify whether or not primitive and long dead societies exhibited theistic beliefs? Signs of worship and ritualisation seem to be the key indicators.
But I am not claiming to have any knowledge in this area at all. I just thought it was an interesting and relevant question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phage0070, posted 12-03-2010 2:42 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 12:11 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 373 (594657)
12-04-2010 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 12:11 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Phage writes:
there isn't anything inherent about ritualization and worship that necessarily implies the supernatural.
Not definitively no. But when anthropologists find signs of worship is it not usually taken that this implies some form of supernatural belief? I am thinking of things like neolithic figurines as representing some sort of fertility goddess.
Are there any examples of primitive cultures where we know that worship was not related to supernatural belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 12:11 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by frako, posted 12-04-2010 2:29 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 13 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 3:28 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 373 (594684)
12-04-2010 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by frako
12-04-2010 2:29 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Can you give some examples?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by frako, posted 12-04-2010 2:29 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by frako, posted 12-04-2010 5:47 PM Straggler has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 14 of 373 (594698)
12-04-2010 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 3:28 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Phage writes:
The dividing line into supernatural belief is when the believer doesn't believe something like the Sky-God physically exists and is the mechanism behind rain and lightning (probably by knowing how things actually work), and instead believes that the Sky-God "metaphysically" exists and causes those things to happen "supernaturally".
I'm not sure I understand your method of distinguishing between that which is supernatural and that which is not.
For example you seem to be suggesing that something like the following is NOT a supernatural belief because the believers do not know the actual cause of volcanoes.
Volcano Link writes:
The word 'volcano' comes from the little island of Vulcano in the Mediterranean Sea off Sicily. Centuries ago, the people living in this area believed that Vulcano was the chimney of the forge of Vulcan - the blacksmith of the Roman gods. They thought that the hot lava fragments and clouds of dust erupting form Vulcano came from Vulcan's forge as he beat out thunderbolts for Jupiter, king of the gods, and weapons for Mars, the god of war. Link
You don't think the above is a supernatural belief? Is that right?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 3:28 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 5:21 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 16 of 373 (594704)
12-04-2010 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 5:21 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
So belief in gods doesn't in itself constitute belief in supernature as far as you are concerned?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 5:21 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 5:45 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 373 (594708)
12-04-2010 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 5:45 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Phage writes:
Straggler writes:
So belief in gods doesn't in itself constitute belief in supernature as far as you are concerned?
Not necessarily.
Then regardless of whether I agree with it or not I am not sure how useful your distinction is in this thread. In the unlikely event that we ever discover animals explicitly demonstrating belief in gods of some sort (shrines, idols that sort of thing) I think the answer to the question being asked in this thread would be - Yes.
Quibbling over whether their gods were supernatural or not by the terms you have defined doesn't seem that relevant.
Phage writes:
The distinction is if you believe that god to be a part of nature or separate from nature.
I think supernatural (broadly) means something that is neither derived from nor subject to natural laws and which is thus materially inexplicable. And gods are (broadly) supernatural conscious beings who are envisaged to have power over some aspect of reality.
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force Related adj divine
Phage writes:
Basically what I am trying to avoid is a instance like when a "god" is defined to be someone who has obtained a level of self control and peace with themselves to the point of divesting themselves of desire and dissatisfaction.
I am not sure that is too much of a concern in the case of examining whether animals exhibit signs of supernatural belief.
Phage writes:
I think that its much more reasonable to differentiate belief in supernature and belief in nature directly, rather then by adding caveats for gods or spirits just so we can call belief in unicorns supernatural and belief in atomic positively charged pudding natural.
I don't see how the plum pudding model of the atom could ever be described as a supernatural claim.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 5:45 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:02 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 21 of 373 (594714)
12-04-2010 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 7:02 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
With regard to animals and their beliefs all we have, in the absence of communication, is comparison of animal behaviour with human behaviour. Where we see animals behaving in ways that are directly comparable to humans exhibiting belief in supernatural beings we can consider the possibility that animals are doing something similar.
Subtle distinctions between gods and beings that are metaphysically supernatural by the rather unique definitions you are advocating just don't seem that relevant.
Phage writes:
So, in the context of this thread, what criteria need to be met to be considered belief in a supernatural being?
Look if we even get to the stage where there is any evidence to suggest that animals might believe in such things then we can quibble over what exactly is meant by "supernatural being". But let's establish whether there is even a case to be made for the possibility before we get bogged down in detailed definitions.
Why does every single thread in this place have to end up as an exercise in "define your terms" tedium?
Phage on the plum pudding model of the atom writes:
But what exactly is the difference between this attempt at an explanation and a different attempt that claimed positively charged pixies carried the electrons around?
One is able to be materially investigated and the other isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:02 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:52 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 27 of 373 (594755)
12-05-2010 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phage0070
12-04-2010 7:52 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Given that you evidently find the use of the term "supernatural" so objectionable without it first being tied down to within an inch of it's existence I suggest that you approach this thread from the perspective of identifying any indications of religious behaviour (in the broadest sense of the phrase) in animals.
And before you ask me to define "religious behaviour" here is what I mean by a broad definition of religion: "having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity".
For heavens sake how many detailed definitions of what is meant by "supernatural" does EvC need? And in the unlikely event that we find evidence of animals exhibiting belief in a Thor-like-god-of-thunder being are we really going to start squabbling over whether or not this qualifies as supernatural in the abstract metaphysical sense you are advocating as necessary?
Given the remarkable nature of such a discovery and it's possible implications - Who cares whether it meets your strict and rather unique definition of "supernatural" or not?
Phage writes:
No, lets decide what we are looking for before deciding that we have found it, or not, and then later arguing over what it is we found. How can we find evidence in support of belief in something when we don't even know what it is we are looking for evidence about? Much less what form that evidence might take?
No. Let's find some potentially relevant examples and then discuss whether or not they are indicative of supernatural belief in animals.
Given the sparsity of such examples and the speculative nature of the whole topic this seems a far more productive way forwards than providing highly detailed definitions only to realise afterwards that this a complete waste of time because there is no evidence for anything even close to that which has been defined.
So - What real life examples are there of animals exhibiting behaviour that is comparable to human religious behaviour and which could be indicative of similar beliefs in animals?
That is the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phage0070, posted 12-04-2010 7:52 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 11:48 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 28 of 373 (594758)
12-05-2010 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
12-04-2010 11:00 PM


Re: Most Likely
Straggler writes:
Do animals exhibit belief in supernatural beings?
Jon writes:
Likely. To my cat, I am God Two-Legs who brings food to the bowl from the magical bag within the mystical closet.
What indications do you have that your cat thinks you are a supernatural being rather than just a rather gullible two legged source of food?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 12-04-2010 11:00 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 11:10 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 31 of 373 (594817)
12-05-2010 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
12-05-2010 11:10 AM


Re: Most Likely
Jon writes:
Straggler writes:
What indications do you have that your cat thinks you are a supernatural being rather than just a rather gullible two legged source of food?
She bows to me each morning in order that I feed her.
No dude. She is showing you he ass and saying "If you don't supply me with food I will shit on your pillow".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 11:10 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 1:35 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 34 of 373 (594831)
12-05-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 11:48 AM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Well if you want to raise these non-deifying acts of religious behaviour on the part of animals I would be delighted to hear of them in this thread. Because I think the examples of animals exhibiting such behaviour are of far more relevance to this thread than the endless definitions we can apply to such things.
Call me radical if you will........
So what examples do you have (definitions aside for one moment?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 11:48 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:01 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 36 of 373 (594838)
12-05-2010 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 12:01 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Phage writes:
The ritual attention paid to the dead by apes and elephants, as well as the hierarchical social structure involved, seems to qualify as "religious" in the broadest sense of the term.
I have found stuff on elephant death rituals which was abolsutely fascinating. See Message 7.
Haven't found anything similar on apes. Do you have any links for that?
Chimps exhibit "rain dance" behaviour which scientists have suggested mimics primitive man's attitude to the elements. But from what I have seen this is wildly speculative to say the least.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:01 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:24 PM Straggler has replied

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