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Author Topic:   Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?
Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 31 of 373 (594817)
12-05-2010 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
12-05-2010 11:10 AM


Re: Most Likely
Jon writes:
Straggler writes:
What indications do you have that your cat thinks you are a supernatural being rather than just a rather gullible two legged source of food?
She bows to me each morning in order that I feed her.
No dude. She is showing you he ass and saying "If you don't supply me with food I will shit on your pillow".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 11:10 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 1:35 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 373 (594828)
12-05-2010 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Straggler
12-05-2010 6:22 AM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Straggler writes:
And before you ask me to define "religious behaviour" here is what I mean by a broad definition of religion: "having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity".
Well its good that you spelled that out because I was going to say "yes" to the question, but now I say "no". I was under the impression that there were some religions that didn't have deities but GOSH, seems like I was splitting hairs!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 6:22 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 11:53 AM Phage0070 has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 373 (594829)
12-05-2010 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
12-05-2010 11:10 AM


Re: Most Likely
Jon writes:
She bows to me each morning in order that I feed her.
Lots of human cultures involve bowing to each other without that being a religious behavior at all, much less implying a belief that the target of the bow is supernatural.
I recognize the joke of course, but its a pertinent observation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 11:10 AM Jon has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 34 of 373 (594831)
12-05-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 11:48 AM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Well if you want to raise these non-deifying acts of religious behaviour on the part of animals I would be delighted to hear of them in this thread. Because I think the examples of animals exhibiting such behaviour are of far more relevance to this thread than the endless definitions we can apply to such things.
Call me radical if you will........
So what examples do you have (definitions aside for one moment?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 11:48 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:01 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 373 (594833)
12-05-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
12-05-2010 11:53 AM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Straggler writes:
So what examples do you have (definitions aside for one moment?)
The ritual attention paid to the dead by apes and elephants, as well as the hierarchical social structure involved, seems to qualify as "religious" in the broadest sense of the term.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 11:53 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 12:14 PM Phage0070 has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 36 of 373 (594838)
12-05-2010 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 12:01 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Phage writes:
The ritual attention paid to the dead by apes and elephants, as well as the hierarchical social structure involved, seems to qualify as "religious" in the broadest sense of the term.
I have found stuff on elephant death rituals which was abolsutely fascinating. See Message 7.
Haven't found anything similar on apes. Do you have any links for that?
Chimps exhibit "rain dance" behaviour which scientists have suggested mimics primitive man's attitude to the elements. But from what I have seen this is wildly speculative to say the least.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:01 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:24 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 373 (594842)
12-05-2010 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Straggler
12-05-2010 12:14 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Straggler writes:
Haven't found anything similar on apes. Do you have any links for that?
*Multiple sites. Gorillas are known to hold wakes for dead friends; zoos have cermonialized this. Donna Fernandes reports that at Franklin
Park Zoo, Boston, ten years ago, after a female Babs died of cancer, her longtime mate said ‘good-bye’: ‘He was howling and banging his
chest,and he picked up a piece of her favorite foodceleryand put it in her hand and tried to get her to wake up. I was weeping it was so
emotional.’ Later the zoo held a funeral, similarly moving. As reported by the local news, gorilla family members ‘one by onefiled into’
the room where ‘Babs’s body lay’, approaching their ‘beloved leader’ and ‘gently sniffing the body.’ In addition to gorillas holding wakes,
baboons are known to seek the comfort of friends after deaths in their family. Researchers from the University of Pennsylvania
She} began grooming with a female of much lower
status, behavior that would otherwise be beneath her’ (Bekoff 2007).
This is just from the "Chimp Spirit Database" linked at the start of the thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 12:14 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by frako, posted 12-05-2010 12:28 PM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 41 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 12:51 PM Phage0070 has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 38 of 373 (594844)
12-05-2010 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 12:24 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
This is just from the "Chimp Spirit Database" linked at the start of the thread.
I go to many a funeral thoug i do not belive in a soul or a god there is nothing supernatural for me about it. A last respect an opertunity to offer condolences to the his loved ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:24 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:31 PM frako has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 373 (594847)
12-05-2010 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by frako
12-05-2010 12:28 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
frako writes:
I go to many a funeral thoug i do not belive in a soul or a god there is nothing supernatural for me about it.
Who said anything about supernatural? I thought we agreed we weren't talking about that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by frako, posted 12-05-2010 12:28 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by frako, posted 12-05-2010 12:46 PM Phage0070 has not replied
 Message 42 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 12:53 PM Phage0070 has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 40 of 373 (594852)
12-05-2010 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 12:31 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Who said anything about supernatural? I thought we agreed we weren't talking about that
sorry the title
Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?
got me confused

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:31 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 41 of 373 (594853)
12-05-2010 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 12:24 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Fair point.
Although I haven't found anything aside from the links in the OP (originally posted by RAZD here Message 609) that relates to ape death rituals. certainly nothing comparable to elephants.
Everytime I search I get the name "Jane Goodall" and a link to an article about "Rain Dances" that doesn't work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:24 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 42 of 373 (594855)
12-05-2010 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phage0070
12-05-2010 12:31 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
Phage writes:
Who said anything about supernatural? I thought we agreed we weren't talking about that.
What we have agreed is to not split hairs about that. And to instead look for signs of animal behaviour that are comparable to human behaviour in the context of religious or supernatural beliefs in the widest sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phage0070, posted 12-05-2010 12:31 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 1:38 PM Straggler has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 373 (594862)
12-05-2010 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
12-05-2010 11:24 AM


It's All Relative
No dude. She is showing you he ass and saying "If you don't supply me with food I will shit on your pillow".
She doesn't have to respect me to believe that I am supernatural. But I think you are missing the point, which is that it is pretty difficult to figure out whether or not a critter believes in a 'supernatural being' if we do not know what constitutes a 'supernatural being'.
To my cat, I am big and powerful. I control the flow of her food and her water, and keep her shitting area cleanI make her life possible. I also do an undoubtedly many things which mystify her: I stand under running water regularly; I make the weirdest noises with my mouth; I sit at this goofy flip-box thingy hammering away at these little button things; I punish her for doing things she does not even understand, occasionally even for simply doing things that are merely in her nature to do.
If this doesn't make me supernatural to my cat, what would?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : subtitle

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 11:24 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 1:41 PM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 373 (594864)
12-05-2010 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Straggler
12-05-2010 12:53 PM


Re: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings
And to instead look for signs of animal behaviour that are comparable to human behaviour in the context of religious or supernatural beliefs in the widest sense.
If this is how you plan to evidence supernatural beliefs in animals, then you will fail at the task for the simple reason that animals are not humans.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 12:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Straggler, posted 12-05-2010 1:44 PM Jon has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 45 of 373 (594867)
12-05-2010 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jon
12-05-2010 1:35 PM


Re: It's All Relative
Jon writes:
If this doesn't make me supernatural to my cat, what would?
Do you think the capacity to question the causes of things and invent answers requires a degree of intelligence?
A degree of inventive intelligence which cats (to my knowledge) have not demonstrated. Which humans indisputably have demonstrated (e.g. Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter) and which apes, elephants and other relatively intelligent creatures may or may not have displayed?
The latter cases being the main focus of this thread.
Jon writes:
She doesn't have to respect me to believe that I am supernatural.
And you don't have to respect her - But if you don't respect her in terms of feeding and suchlike expect that shit on your pillow.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 1:35 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Jon, posted 12-05-2010 4:29 PM Straggler has replied

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