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Author Topic:   Letters to 'Unintelligible Design'
gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 68 (200958)
04-21-2005 3:49 PM


I'm not sure if this is actually a debate topic.
Maybe it's more of a Coffee House thing?
I wanted to get people's opinion of some letters sent to and published by Chemical & Engineering News, to which I subscribe merely by being a member of ACS.
I hope the article and letters don't take up too much space.
What I find interesting, or maybe depressing and embarrassing all at the same time is that these people writing the letters are chemists or chemical engineers (well, I can understand the engineers writing these in.) Does anyone else find these letters disturbing?
Here is the article:
February 7, 2005
Volume 83, Number 06
p. 5
Unintelligible Design
RUDY M. BAUM
Editor-in-chief
There is a long, narrow room in the Smithsonian Institution's Museum of Natural History that I stumbled on one day several years ago when I was visiting with my wife and two sons. On the museum's floor plan, the room is simply labeled "Bones." And that's just what it is, a roomful of bones. On both sides of the room are glass cases from floor to ceiling with complete skeletons of a wide range of modern vertebrates arranged taxonomically.
Not many people were in the room at any one time, and the ones who stumbled on it, many of them looking for a nearby special exhibit, did not, for the most part, linger. A young woman and a young man whom I took to be students sat on the floor with sketch pads skillfully rendering the skeletons of two animals. My two young sons quickly grew fidgety, and my wife took them to another exhibit. I told her I'd catch up with them. I spent nearly an hour moving along the displays, transfixed by the skeletons and the relationships they revealed.
Later, I said to my wife that I did not understand how anyone who visited that exhibit could doubt the reality of evolution. The skeletons screamed "descent with modification from a common ancestor."
The clash between scientists who understand evolution as the organizing principle of modern biology and people--most, but not all, nonscientists--who reject evolution and insist on a divine origin of life as it exists today on Earth has been a long-running theme in my career as a science journalist. For someone who writes for a newsmagazine covering the chemical enterprise, it is, I suppose, an unlikely theme, but it has been there, on and off, for 25 years.
One of my first major stories for C&EN in 1981 was covering the two-week trial in federal district court in Little Rock, Ark., in which a number of plaintiffs challenged the legality of a state law that mandated that "creationism" be taught in any science class in which evolution was taught. Creationism holds that scientific evidence supports the literal accuracy of the creation story of Genesis. In a forcefully worded opinion, Judge William R. Overton ruled that the Arkansas law was unconstitutional. It seemed to me at the time that Overton's opinion settled the matter.
It didn't, of course, any more than did the 1968 Supreme Court ruling that overturned an Arkansas law that prohibited the teaching of evolution in public school. Opponents of evolution are still trying to have creationism taught alongside evolution. Advocates of "intelligent design"--the successor to creationism designed to avoid its constitutional problems--argue for their ideas to be taught alongside evolution. Intelligent design does not insist on the literal truth of Genesis, but maintains that the complexity of living organisms proves that they could not have come into existence through random variations guided by natural selection. Instead, its proponents argue that such complexity proves that living organisms are the product of intelligent design.
In states ranging from Georgia to Pennsylvania to Kansas, opponents of evolution are pushing school boards to mandate the teaching of intelligent design alongside evolution in science classes or placing stickers in biology textbooks denigrating evolution as an unproven theory. Lawsuits by concerned parents and/or teachers continue to rebuff these efforts, but it is debilitating to have to continue to fight this battle.
This does not seem like it should be hard. Although polls consistently show that a solid majority of Americans do not accept the reality of evolution, I want to think that, if I could get every schoolkid in the U.S. into that room in the Museum of Natural History along with a good biology teacher, the debate would be over. (I know, I'm dreaming.) I also know that some chemists don't think this is our battle. In the increasingly multidisciplinary world of modern science, however, where a lot of chemists are working on biological questions, evolution is one of our organizing principles, too. We have much to do.
Thanks for reading.
And here are the letters 2 issues later:
The first letter is atrocious.
Thank you for your editorial "Unintelligible Design" (C&EN, Feb. 7, page 3).
In your piece, you write that the skeletons in the Smithsonian Museum screamed of "descent with modification from a common ancestor." I would like to kindly submit to you an equally valid explanation: The relationships between the skeletons indicate a "common designer." Unfortunately, neither a common ancestor nor a common designer has been observed, because no human observer was present to record the event.
Furthermore, the fossil record does not give irrefutable proof of either possibility. However, I prefer the "common designer" theory because intelligent design, even man-made design, is self-evident--consider the arrowhead versus a pebble weathered by the elements, or the presidents' heads carved into Mount Rushmore.
The problem with evolution "through random variations guided by natural selection" is that random variations do not give rise to new genetic information, but to new combinations of existing genetic information. At least in the present, greater complexity or higher organisms cannot come about without new genetic information. Random variations lead to microevolution (that is, variety within the dog family), but do not lead to macroevolution (such as reptile to bird). No amount of observed microevolution has ever led to macroevolution. Furthermore, we recognize mutations as being harmful to organisms (a loss of information), and natural selection selects from existing combinations of genetic information to stabilize a population. One would have to assume that different natural laws operated in the past for macroevolution to occur.
It is true that the majority of Americans do not accept evolution wholeheartedly, because most Americans are not atheists. In order to fully accept evolution, without any acknowledgement of a creator/designer, one must have a bent toward an atheistic worldview. This worldview denies the spiritual aspect of man and only accepts the material view that "the material realm is all that exists" (see "Science's New Heresy Trial," World, Feb. 19, page 26). As scientists, we should consider all the evidence and not compel others to bow only at the altar of evolution.
John A. Dingess
Hanover Park, Ill.
The next one doesn't seem so bad, except the writer misses the whole point.
The main problem I have with it is the use of the word faith.
It does not take faith to hypothesize the various mechanisms for evolution and then test them nor does it take faith to draw certain conclusions when enough evidence presents itself.
I disagree with your editorial. i hope that anyone trained as a scientist would know that the scientific method should not lead anyone to conclude that similar structures in animals prove that they descended from a common ancestor. Such a conclusion has to be based on faith that evolution is the mechanism by which the diverse creatures in this world came into being, and such faith is often accompanied by belief that this all came about by chance.
It also takes faith to believe that the extreme complexity of even the simplest organisms and their ability to reproduce themselves through the ages result from intelligent design. For me, it is much easier to have faith that the amazing diversity of living organisms and our ability to understand and reason did not come about by chance.
Luke A. Schaap
Lansing, Ill.
This next one blows my mind.
I'm also not sure why the author of the editorial said that evolution is a central organizing principle in chemistry, but the responder says that this is nonsense because chemical properties don't evolve, they stay the same. Well, yeah, but only if the "chemicals" stay the same. Duh, the editor wasn't even implying that the properties of a particular molecule have changed over the years, but we do have bazillions of molecules that we didn't have 200 years ago. Anyway, here's the letter:
In your editorial, you make the statement that for chemists "evolution is one of our organizing principles." I'm not sure what you mean by this. Chemical properties don't "evolve"; they stay the same. There's no reason to believe that chemicals on the early Earth behaved any differently than they do today.
Another interesting claim you make is that collections of skeletons (fossils) "scream" descent from a common ancestry (that is, Darwinian evolution). Well, maybe they do for some people, but not for others. The main characteristics of the fossil record are abrupt appearance and stasis. That is, new animal species appear suddenly in the fossil record and then remain pretty much the same during their time on Earth. This pattern is hardly what one would expect from Darwinian evolution, which is supposed to be a gradual process. If Darwin were right, fossil deposits should be full of intermediate forms, but they're not.
You would have us believe that Darwin's theory is a proven fact, and that we really shouldn't have to fight against intelligent design and other pretenders to evolution's throne. The science establishment would certainly agree with this viewpoint. But when a scientific theory is held immune from critique, it leaves the realm of science and becomes dogma.
Darwinian evolution may or may not be true. But it is becoming increasingly clear that intelligent design presents a serious challenge to the Darwinian establishment. The sooner the scientific community takes an honest look at the claims of design theory, the closer we will be to understanding the development of life on Earth.
Robert Lattimer
Hudson, Ohio
Can any biologists refute what this next letter says?
It says that evolution is not a central organizing principle in biology, but cell strucutre and genetics are. To me, genetics and evolution are pretty difficult to pull apart, but I'm no biologist.
Exhibits at national museums are the showpieces for evolution, so it's no wonder they look so convincing--that's their purpose. In all cases, as with all of evolution, you have a few facts surrounded by massive numbers of assumptions--with the whole package presented as fact.
Evolution is not the organizing principle of modern biology; cell theory and genetics hold that position. Look into "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" for yourself, for example. You will find that the evidence presented for this by Ernst Haeckel in the 1800s has been proven false--yet the idea persists today. Or try the horse series shown in most biology books: Fossils of the earliest horse fossil have been found in the same rock layer as the most recent fossil--yet the earliest is still said to "evolve" into the most recent. Charles Darwin saw variation in the Galapagos Islands but called it evolution. This goes on and on.
Again, evolution is a massive list of assumptions, in many different disciplines, presented as fact. Check it out for yourself. See that there are sound scientific reasons for questioning evolution.
Chemical evolution of life is the weak link of evolution, the foundation. If you cannot get life started this way, the entire edifice falls. So, yes, chemists should look into this area, but only if they are willing to let the data speak for itself instead of imposing preconceived ideas and notions on what it says.
Frank Lut
Honolulu
The last anti letter is a real hoot.
I hope the article did insult chemists and chemical engineers who follow Intellegent Design. Actually I just hope it did something to wake them up a bit.
Your editorial is an outrageous insult to chemists and chemical engineers who believe in an intelligent designer and who are not afraid or embarrassed to call him or her God.
How dare you presume to object to the teaching of an alternate explanation for the creation of the universe than blind chance? What are your credentials in philosophy and theology that allow you to speak with such arrogant authority for your explanation and so demeaningly of someone else's? As a person of science, you above all should know that you cannot prove that someone or something does not exist. All the bones in the world would not prove the nonexistence of a divine being.
Not for one second do I believe that the world was created in six 24-hour days. I don't know anyone who does. However, the idea that evolution was directed by an intelligent designer is an absolutely valid explanation of the observed facts, and it is rejected a priori by persons infected by the attitudes of 18th- and 19th-century scientists and philosophers who thought they had the whole world figured out. The debacle of man's inhumanity to man of the 20th century, in particular the misuse of science by the Germans and Japanese, seems to have had no effect on the sensibilities of these moderns.
Evolution by blind chance leads us back to the idea that "man is the measure of all things," a philosophical concept that predates Aristotle. Morality comes from the sword--"might makes right"--or the ballot box, "the majority rules." It validates totalitarian governments and anything they do. The absolute standard of morality is gone. Government sets standards by making things legal or illegal, but nothing is right or wrong absolutely. The danger of this idea for the well-being of society cannot be overstated; anything goes.
We have so much to do to educate the public away from fear of chemicals and the chemical industry and toward some reasonable approach to nuclear power and other alternate sources of energy that we can ill afford the time to promote an unprovable, atheistic explanation of creation.
Raymond S. Martin
Beverly, Mass.
To me, this means that the situation is worse than I thought.
I had no idea that this movement has so many followers.
I am actually embarrased by these people's letters.
I could understand if all these MEN were engineers.
It seems that engineers, no matter which discipline, tend to like to tell you why your wrong, despite how utterly wrong they are. (No offense to any non-bullheaded engineers out there. )
Here is another article published in a University newspaper by a Junior engineering student who talks about basic science.
Basic science destroys the theory of evolution itself
by Mike Matthews II
April 18, 2005
I love issues where everyone has an opinion and next to no one knows anything about the issue. The controversy surrounding Darwinism is one such topic where the majority of people base their belief on emotional connection and not logic or understanding. There are three main groups: Darwinists, theological evolutionists and (agnostic) evolutionists. What follows is the simplest reason each one fails to be valid.
To weed out the theological evolutionists we need to accept one truth about the validity of the Bible, the one assumption that can never be violated without deteriorating any claim referring to the Bible: the Bible is the divine work of God. As such, God alone ensures the preservation of the validity of his world. The important ramification of this is that the unadulterated word of God is explicit when it states God created man; there is no implication that this is metaphorical. Therefore, any Christian willing to accept evolution has violated the basic principle tying him to theology and proves his own arguments not credible.
Next I will dismantle the Darwinist camp. Darwinists believe there is no God. To this claim, I will try to state the first law of thermodynamics: all matter and energy in the universe is constant (i.e. matter will never spontaneously appear.) At some point in time, the universe did not exist. We know this is true from a scientific standpoint since everything has a beginning that exists in the physical universe. Before the time that matter came into existence, if there were no God, there still would be matter in the universe. If you find this hard to believe, conduct the following experiment with me:
Take a plastic bag, and inflate it; the bag represents the confines of the known universe. For the sake of this experiment we will ignore the fact there is any kind of matter within the bag (such as your saliva and other air gases or contaminants). Being considered empty, we have a perfect model of the pre-big-bang universe. Wait as long as you want, there won't be anything added to that bag until you open it up and place something inside. At the point that you place something in the bag, you have acted as God on the system and caused creation in your universe. In this sense, God is merely anything which exists outside of the confines of our universe with the power to change our physical universe.
Now for people who read Stephen Hawking and actually believe the crap about anti-matter and matter splitting spontaneously all the time, I will state the second law of thermodynamics: everything in the universe tends toward chaos. Even ignore that it takes energy to split nothing into something and anti-something, this second law explains that the random generation of such matter and anti-matter would effectively cancel itself out by colliding with its opposite, instead of all matter flowing in one direction and all anti-mater in the opposite direction. Therefore, the no God assumption fails based on an elementary-schooler's understanding of physics. Try it. It never fails.
Finally on to the basic evolutionists (those unconcerned with God's existence or absence). The strongest basic support evolutionists offer comes from a study based on breeding habits of a few different snails of the same species who do not interbreed. (Most people have heard the story, if you have not, feel free to ask.) The real problem with this model is that it proves what we knew to be true anyway, two different populations place different values on certain traits and selectively breed the traits found desirable; in effect this claim is a social evolution demonstration. That nature could provide selective pressures that could cause one trait to be of advantage and a different one to be of disadvantage, is not surprising and can be shown in many ways. The only problem is that these sorts of changes are gene expression changes and not gene formation changes. If you marry someone taller than you and have children taller than you, your children are not a new species, they are simple humans with gene expression for taller height.
Scientifically speaking, creationism is leagues ahead since it doesn't break any natural laws to establish its claims; likewise the list of counters to evolution with various levels of complexity could go on ad nauseam. Briefly, though, the three laws which invalidate evolution are the first and second laws of thermodynamics and the law of biogenesis; at the point that an evolutionist tries to weasel around the implication of a scientific law, his argument is no longer based on reason but on gross, unscientific speculation.
--Mike Matthews II is a junior in the School of Engineering.
Then a FRESHMAN physics student sets ole engineer boy straight in the next issue.
Evolution column was juvenile
Letters to the editor
by Thomas Broderick
April 20, 2005
To The Editor:
I love it when a self-righteous junior tries to do what hundreds of better-educated theologians haven't been able to do in 150 years: dispel evolution. My anger at the moment really has nothing do with the fact that Mike Matthews tried to challenge evolution, but the fact he tried to do it in a college newspaper with 771 words. For God's sake, at least write a book, Mike.
"Now for people who read Stephen Hawking and actually believe the crap about anti-matter and matter splitting spontaneously all the time?" Mike, let me introduce you to the physics department. I'm sure I could set up a meeting with you and the department chair so you two can talk about the wasteful "crap" they teach. That was a really bad move on your part. Even Michael Wilt {student OP-ED writer who seems to be looking for a job at Fox News} doesn't attack students, two faculty departments and moderate Christians in the same article.
Now Mike, if you were high, drunk or even on a tight deadline when you wrote that article, I understand. Yet yours is one of many articles I've read over the last year that scream, "I'm writing this because I know I can get away with it!" That's not free speech; it's a reckless abuse of the majority voice at {school's name}.
Thomas Broderick Freshman, A&S
So even at a 'prestigious' university, creationism rears its ugly head.
Is anyone as disturbed as I am at these trends?
Why are there so many articles and letters in so many magazines and newspapers lately?
Hell, there's even an article about it in the May 2005 issue of Playboy!!
What do you think is going on?
Is it a sign that more and more people are being led astray by ID and creationism or is it a sign that more and more people are waking up to the fact that there are so many fools out there willing to buy into it?

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by truthlover, posted 04-21-2005 11:18 PM gnojek has replied
 Message 5 by Brad McFall, posted 04-22-2005 4:25 AM gnojek has replied
 Message 6 by Matt P, posted 04-22-2005 7:47 PM gnojek has replied

  
Admin
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Message 2 of 68 (200974)
04-21-2005 5:09 PM


Thread copied to the Letters to 'Unintelligible Design' thread in the Is It Science? forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

  
Admin
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Posts: 13017
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Message 3 of 68 (200976)
04-21-2005 5:12 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
In most cases the OP would be far too long for an introductory post, but it seems to makes sense in this case. I originally put this in Is It Science?, then changed my mind and moved it here.
This message has been edited by Admin, 04-21-2005 04:14 PM

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 4 of 68 (201063)
04-21-2005 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by gnojek
04-21-2005 3:49 PM


What do you think is going on?
Is it a sign that more and more people are being led astray by ID and creationism or is it a sign that more and more people are waking up to the fact that there are so many fools out there willing to buy into it?
I don't understand the "more and more" part. What you read may be frustrating, but I think stats show that less and less people (though not many less) are being "led astray" by ID. (I'm guessing here that the term "ID" now belongs to those who agree with Behe, not to those of us who think evolution is as intelligent a design as any other.)
I think what's going on here is that people are people. They're doggone hard to understand, and they only care so much what is true. I wish I understood better what motivates people to care what is true in this or that area, because it would probably make me quite influential, as well as helping me when I don't like what's true.
Actually, your Mike Mathews letter may have one of the better answers to your "what's going on" question:
quote:
I love issues where everyone has an opinion and next to no one knows anything about the issue. The controversy surrounding Darwinism is one such topic where the majority of people base their belief on emotional connection and not logic or understanding.
When it comes down to chemicals (emotions) vs. truth, truth has to work very, very hard to get the upper hand.
Of course, he says "majority of people" here. Let's see, about 49% of people have the truth (evolution), but surely not all of them got there on logic or understanding. At least some of those, knowing humans, have got to just be lucky their emotions put them on the right side. And surely a few anti-evolutionists mean well, and their belief is based on inaccurate or uninformed logic, not just emotion.
I don't know, hard to say if majority applies in the case of Darwinism. Ol' Mike may be right about emotion, but I think he chose a bad subject to use as an example of emotion over logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by gnojek, posted 04-21-2005 3:49 PM gnojek has replied

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5054 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 5 of 68 (201094)
04-22-2005 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by gnojek
04-21-2005 3:49 PM


Darwin quote on prophetic types added

You are correct it is not easy to pull genetics and evolution apart. One must do that and NOT seperate what Mayr called "two essentially independent processes"
quote:
Evidently, then, it is not legitimate to refute the validity of one of Darwin's mutiple choices and then claim this is a refutation of Darwinism. Some historians (for example, Kohn, Ospovat, Hodge) have referred to the combination of theories Darwin held at various times as his "unified theory" of that period. I will not argue against this, if this is the historians' practice. But it must not be forgotten that each of these "unified" theories consisted of a very heterogenous set of components, each of them a full theory in its own right. There is one particularly cogent reason why Darwinism cannot be a single homogenous theory, which is that organic evolution consists of two essentially independent processes, transformation in time and diversification in (ecological and geographical) space The two processes require a minimum of two entirely independent and very different theories. That writers on Darwin have nevertheless almost invariable spoken of the combination of these various theories as "Darwin's theory" in the singular, is..."
Toward a New Philosophy of Biology p197-8
Mayr makes this difference because he DID NOT notice a hierarchy of prophetic types can exist without any implication of polygenism although in the condition that they exist as more than a classification aid (have trade name status) they might assist in the reduction of the level of organization under different levels of selection becoming more determined by the 2nd law of thermodyanmics. This is a very hard thought. I dont make it at will.
It can be done with Agassiz's prophetic types(see Mayr on Agassiz below) but these must not be evidence for polygenism. Mayr categorically failed to see that Agassiz's embryological thinking could help in proposing speciation in herps. I have had many such thoughts contra Mayr but in Agassiz's occassionalism. That's why I got into so much trouble with doctors. No one in modern times seems to have thought around these byways. Next pics show how I had thought about Agassiz's observation that Mayr derides and fails to comprehend in the least relating the forms discussed to orthoselection posibilities in a systmatics prior to spatial analysis to be completed as previewed in the top of the picture under electrostatic conditions inferiror with more negative biopolarity. The quote from Mayr on A is
quote:
Agassiz illustrates this thesis by reference to the development of teh frog, in which the earlier stages of the tadpoles resemble fishes. "Next it assumes a shape reminding us more of the Tritons and Salamanders,and ends with the structure of the Frog...it cannot be doubted, that the earlier stages of growth of an animal exhibit a condition of relative inferitority, when constrasted with what it grows to be, after it has completed its development."
quote:
He devotes an entire section of his Natural History of the United States to "Prophetic Types among Animals" We have seen in the preceeding paragraph, how the embryonic conditions of the higher representatives of certain types, called into existence at a later time, are typified, as it were, in representatives of the same type, which have existed at an earlier period..Certain types which are frequently prominent among the representatives of past ages, combine in their structure, peculiarites which at later periods are only observed seperately in different, distinct types. Sauroid Fishes before Reptiles, Pterodactyles before Birds, Ichthysauri before Dolphins, etc...Such types, I have for some time past, been in the habit of calling prophetic types...[They] afford...the most unexpected evidence, that the plan of the whole creation had been maturely considered long before it was executed.(1857: 116-117)
He does not explain just why the existence of such less perfect and less successful forms as the sauroid fishes, the pterodactyls, and the ichythosaurs should prove the existence of a mature and carefully prepared blueprint of the creation.
page264 Evolution and the Diversity of Life Harvard Press 1976.
These are the kinds of things I would have liked to have been paid to explain. I got into Cornell, was given the College Scholar Program, and some other awards on thinking this thought and making it a habit. It might be due to temporality inertia crossing spatial hierarchies in biologically OPENED electric circuits. I dont know. It is not impossible to think about. Maybe it is due to varations in the electrostatic state? I am on my own working in that direction of responsibility and it is the fault of modern biology for not permitting the graduation of students with this interest to continue in academia as there is no other known segment of society outside creationism that this work can be thought of value at present (before it has much). Instead Gould has asserted that the Cambrian presented MORE TYPES OF FORMS. He seems to have been mistaken as some NOT thinking on these lines have said in the same 'fact'. I am tempted to apply Agasiz's notion of prophetic types to plants of Kant's reproduction where I have imagined that the torus might be a place where both voltage and pressure amplitdues could flow in or out of phase. If so the growth of a plant part might inform the cloning of the plant. It would also bear on discussions of stem cell lines' legality.
I dont know how it is that I am the only person with this thought pattern. I think it is because there is nowhere to befound but in this incipiant analysis a proper acheology OF LIFE on Earth. Palenotology only provides towards the digging up of Death.
And so to finish responding. The independence can be only apparent and not constitutive if one thinks that the variational change proposed by Schamllhausen might find the same physical cause of directionality as increasing the mean but that different than simulataneous selection of BOTH extremes. I have only a very weak theoretical praxis of that but one that I had already thought nonetheless. At this point I would have to directly maintain a certain propriety of Bohr over Einstein or Einstein over Bohr in a given physicotheology and I am not at that part of my thought again yet.
Agassiz has most kindly sent me his Introduction two first Part; but I confess I am disappointed: I cannot realise his rules on the value of the higher groups, & all his prophetic &c &c types.
Darwin to AsaGray
Cornell explained that they threw me out because I did not "follow the rules" now in Darwin's own words I see what the administrators at CU could have meant. They were wrong and no one has ever developed the vaule of this remark of CDs. we only have lots of "&" in computer languages.
In otherwords if these types support a discontinuous systematics where currently clades are given the species as individual status and the kinematics of all overlain dynamics does not remand a change in genetic thinking then higher order in the hierarchy of taxa can provide a worthwhile case that Darwin just refused to pursue and Mayr could not fathom. Not only this this work ought to be pursued. I suspect however that explaining a prophetic type in space does invovle gene frequency changes implicated not by the phenotype and niche alone.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 04-22-2005 08:18 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by gnojek, posted 04-21-2005 3:49 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by gnojek, posted 04-22-2005 8:17 PM Brad McFall has not replied

  
Matt P
Member (Idle past 4796 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 6 of 68 (201279)
04-22-2005 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by gnojek
04-21-2005 3:49 PM


Not too surprising
I have a geology/chemistry background, and from my perspective this really isn't that surprising, seeing as the letters are being sent to C&En. I'd be more scared were the letters sent to GeoTimes or a biology newsletter.
Many of my chemistry friends had very little biology/geology background, and most knew little about evolution. A lot of chemists can't identify a mineral, much less a rock, and frequently have little concept of geologic time. If you ask a set of synthetic chemists or chemical engineers how old the Earth is, you're probably not going to get the same range of answers as when you ask geologists. It's easy to be a closet creationist/IDer with a background that doesn't contradict (nor support, but that's another issue) such beliefs. See Walt Brown (mechanical engineer), Henry Morris (hydrologist), Duane Gish (biochemist) for further proof. Education in geology tends to swing even hardline creationists to theistic evolution (see Glenn Morton).
I have met a lot of atmospheric scientists who are creationists, surprisingly enough. One fellow is even one of those preacher/yeller people you may avoid on campus. I've yet to meet a geologist or evolutionary biologist (Ph. D. Level) who is a creationist/IDer. In my opinion, it mainly comes down to what your education is in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by gnojek, posted 04-21-2005 3:49 PM gnojek has replied

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gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 68 (201282)
04-22-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by truthlover
04-21-2005 11:18 PM


truthlover writes:
I don't understand the "more and more" part. What you read may be frustrating, but I think stats show that less and less people (though not many less) are being "led astray" by ID. (I'm guessing here that the term "ID" now belongs to those who agree with Behe, not to those of us who think evolution is as intelligent a design as any other.)
I guess by "more and more" I meant that I am seeing more and more articles, more and more public discussion about creationism. Maybe it's just some sort of cosmic convergence, but when C&E News, the school newspaper, Playboy, Discover, all have something about this all within a few weeks and Nature and Science have articles about it within months of each other, something must be going on.
There wasn't this much creationism talk 2 years ago.
If there was, I can't dream how I couldn't have noticed.
I'm such an information junkie.
The thing that shocked me though was when the kid wrote the opinion article in the school newspaper. OK, screw it, the school is Vanderbilt. So it's in the south, but it's a damned good school, lots of good research going on, all that. It was almost like we had been infiltrated by a creationist mole or something, but no, if this one kid thinks these things, how many other kids at this school think that?
How many kids will get degrees from this school (hopefully not biology) thinking in such a juvenile manner.
Here's another reply to the kid's letter in the newspaper.
These letters allow me a sigh or two of relief.
Matthews ignores basic biology
Michael Funk
April 22, 2005
I feel that it is my duty to call attention to the egregious flaws in the argument of those members of our campus who insist that the theory of evolution by means of natural selection is fiction. Not, however, in the spirit of "disproving" them (impossible since there is no proof for either of our arguments -- only evidence, or lack thereof) or slighting what they believe, but in hopes that they will rethink their position and consider the validity of mine instead of making inflammatory and inaccurate statements and then trying to use science to support them.
To quote the famous biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky, "nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." And amazingly, for a theory apparently based on "breeding habits of a few different snails of the same species that do not interbreed" (a "story" I'm totally unfamiliar with even after several years of liberal high school biology and BSCI 110 here) and "gross, unscientific speculation," the theory of evolution by natural selection has some impressive scientific evidence standing behind it. Dare I name a few examples: fossil records, chemical and morphological similarities among all life forms on earth, vestigial and intermediate structures (exempla gratia: photosensitive patches as precursors of retinal tissue), artificial selection and breeding, convergent evolution and the possibility of quantum evolution (if you want to check out a real scientific theory, "Quantum Evolution," by Johnjoe McFadden, is an excellent read).
My real quarrel, however, is not with the misportrayal of Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, atrocious as it may be, but instead with Mr. Matthews' insistence that "Darwinists believe there is no God" and that scientific laws can be applied to matters of theology. I, as a Catholic, firmly believe in the existence of God, but I also concur with the notion that evolution by natural selection is the process by which all life on this planet, including humans, developed. I do not consider my beliefs to be in conflict at all with my understanding of evolution; for me, they are separate entirely and should never be confused with one another. The Bible is, in my opinion, an important didactic resource, but it should never be mistaken for scientific fact. Further, evolution is concerned only with the development and adaptation of organisms to their environment, not how life or the universe was created in the beginning. As for not comprehending "gene formation changes," I suggest to Mr. Matthews BSCI 110 or 100; either would be informative ad nauseum on subjects like
DNA mutations and gene dynamics in populations. For more information about evolution and natural selection, I suggest checking out Misconceptions about evolution - Understanding Evolution. If you have any doubt that either exists, to research the topic before you try to come to a conclusion would be the appropriate scientific course of action.
--Michael Funk is a freshman in the College of Arts and Science.
Let me just say that I tend to agree with the rest of your post.

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gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 68 (201283)
04-22-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Matt P
04-22-2005 7:47 PM


Re: Not too surprising
Well, any biochemist better not be a creationist!!
I guess I just assumed that people who were smart enough to do ANY science would understand in a second that ID and creationism is not science.
But, maybe that doesn't matter to them.
Maybe they just say "What are those biologists wasting their time on? Don't they know all life was created as it is?"
"What are those geologists smoking? Don't they know the Earth was formed in six days 6000 years ago?"
I just can't see any rational person, much less someone calling themselves a scientists thinking these things.
But, alas, I did have a 'buddy' (a fellow grad student) at one point, who told me he took a genetics class (from a creationist) and afterwards didn't believe in evolution anymore. When he told me that, my opinion of his intelligence plummetted.
I guess you only have to know how to put the peg into the hole, sometimes even if you are a PhD.

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gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 68 (201287)
04-22-2005 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brad McFall
04-22-2005 4:25 AM


Re: Darwin quote on prophetic types added
I think I got the main gist of what you were saying, I think.
But I like the pics, they are almost artistic!

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 10 of 68 (201336)
04-23-2005 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by gnojek
04-22-2005 8:12 PM


Re: Not too surprising
I'm addressing a couple of your posts; I picked #8 to reply to.
I guess by "more and more" I meant that I am seeing more and more articles, more and more public discussion about creationism. Maybe it's just some sort of cosmic convergence, but when C&E News, the school newspaper, Playboy, Discover, all have something about this all within a few weeks and Nature and Science have articles about it within months of each other, something must be going on.
I didn't know this. I don't get a lot of media, so thanks for telling me. I have a funny anecdote, though.
I got the National Geographic (I think, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Discover--doggone my memory) that had "Is Evolution Wrong" or something very like that on the cover. A new person had just come to our village, and being of fundamentalist background, like most of our new members, he was anti-evolutionist and assumed we were, too. He saw the cover and said, "Of course it is!" and threw the magazine back on our table.
My wife and I looked at each other, and went, "Oh oh."
He ended up leaving a month or so later after we had a haunted hayride towards the end of October, so we never had to address evolution. But it is amazing how widespread and entrenched the anti-evolution thing is. Mentioning evolution in our circles causes people's eyes to roll back in their heads, and all cognitive brain function slows to a crawl.
I guess I just assumed that people who were smart enough to do ANY science would understand in a second that ID and creationism is not science.
I'll take this opportunity to address something that might be interesting news to some here on the board.
A while back, there was one Stephen Fretwell on these boards, causing quite a ruckus. Just about a year ago, Stephen moved here to Rose Creek Village. I have had numerous discussions and arguments with him since then (almost none on evolution), and over time he has become a very good friend. He is the smartest man I have ever met, and I understand him to be a pretty well known author and ecologist (based on what I heard on this board, not from him). He wrote Populations in a Seasonal Environment, and the story behind it is quite interesting.
Yet, despite Stephen's incredible intellect (I spent a wonderful evening with him once, as he helped me try to understand why the difference between successive cubes ((x+1)^3 - x^3) is always 6x! + 1; it was his idea to draw six-sided cubes so that we could see the steps up); anyway, despite his incredible intellect, he got so stirred up against evolution that he alienated everyone on this board and took the creation side without anyone even being able to realize he believed in descent with modification from a common ancestor!
I think Stephen could easily have ended up in the same boat as John Baumgardner, another very brilliant man who is a young-earth creationist. We all have areas it's very hard to be objective in.

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mick
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 11 of 68 (201499)
04-23-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by gnojek
04-22-2005 8:12 PM


Re: Not too surprising
gnojek,
i think this results from the fact that the diversity of life on earth is very interesting, to everybody. No matter what your views on religion, you will be astounded if you spend any time looking around you at the biological world. Everybody also feels part of the natural world, so the question of how this life came about is a question that everybody is interested in and feels they have a stake in. Everybody feels that they have something valuable to offer to the debate, because of their life experience in the natural world.
This is quite different when we look at chemistry (for example). An interest in the properties of different chemicals is something of an acquired taste. I never got quite the same sense of wonder looking at a redox reaction in a test tube as I got from looking at a pet cat. I'm not saying chemistry isn't fascinating, it's just not as immediately interesting as watching cats have sex; it doesn't tap so easily into our human lived experience.
So we end up with grand statements made by chemists, freshman engineers, religious authorities, and the bloke in the pub about the origin and diversification of life. These people would never consider making similarly grand statements about carbon nanotubes or superconductors.
As a biologist I don't feel qualified to start attacking chemistry. I wouldn't feel comfortable starting a campaign against the classification of non-metal oxides as acids. I wouldn't sleep well if I spent time writing articles for my university newspaper claiming that carbonic acid doesn't spontaneously decomponse into carbon dioxide and water under normal atmospheric conditions. I would be rather shy of going on TV shows arguing that coulombic attraction doesn't exist in ionically bonded molecules, or that electron shells are cuboid in shape.
but unfortunately it seems that everybody and his uncle are qualified when it comes to talking about living organisms

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Jerry Don Bauer
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 68 (202565)
04-26-2005 11:08 AM


quote:
I guess I just assumed that people who were smart enough to do ANY science would understand in a second that ID and creationism is not science.
Well, just cruising through, spotted this thread, decided to register and chat a bit. But you have to pick one subject or the other. ID is a science based concept and creationism is theology based. Many ID theorists had a science background long before we ever heard of ID. Thus, we stay within the scientific method as we study design just as do molecular design engineers and the like. Although some IDists are creationists, many of us are not. And to those who are not, we often catch it both from the Darwinists and the creationists.
To give you an idea of what I mean, Henry Morris don't like us. You can read Dembski's rebuttle of his criticisms here.
This message has been edited by Jerry Don Bauer, 04-26-2005 10:11 AM

Design Dynamics

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 68 (202567)
04-26-2005 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by truthlover
04-23-2005 12:01 AM


I got the National Geographic (I think, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Discover--doggone my memory) that had "Is Evolution Wrong" or something very like that on the cover...My wife and I looked at each other, and went, "Oh oh."
It was NatGeo, yeah. Funny story - I had much the same reaction. My current job has be delivering to various doctor's offices, and I saw that issue on a table, and I was like "uh oh, surely NatGeo can't possibly be seriously entertaining creationism?" I didn't have the time to sit and open it up and see.
Luckily, soon after I was able to get my hands on an issue and I was pleased to see, in huge capitals, they address the question on the cover: "NO." Funny joke, NatGeo.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 68 (202568)
04-26-2005 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-26-2005 11:08 AM


ID is a science based concept
Er, well, no, it's not. It's not science-based; it's not scientific. It's driven by ideology, not evidence. I mean, one of the biggest ideologies in ID is "we can't ever talk or speculate about who the designer actually was, because then people will catch wise to the fact that we're all pretty sure that it's God."
I mean, is that science? Of course not.

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 Message 12 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-26-2005 11:08 AM Jerry Don Bauer has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5054 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 15 of 68 (202575)
04-26-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-26-2005 11:08 AM


quote:
Toward the end of my visit, John noted that ID fell short of a full creation model, but then commended ID for conclusively showing the bankruptcy of Darwinism. He was right.
your url
I have had this much contanct with John Morris. If he is "right", as I myself also tend to think, I dont understand why ID IS the "limited" tool &
quote:
a friend in the destruction of Darwinian materialism
&
quote:
design providing a viable alternative to existing materialistic accounts
.
Now when I first corresponded with HM in the 90s I was concerned somewhat in Dembski's words that
quote:
Morris fails to address the fundamental issue here, namely, what is the proper scope of design-theoretic reasoning.
But on thinking back what words he actually used in correspondence with me (he stressed that any mathamatical manipulation gained by evolutionists is equally available to creationists and he consisted in the words "creation" and "biology" (not 'life' etc) I dont think this soulful notice of Dembski's is correct. I think it is simply a matter of the economic sociality both limiting the development of creation science and intellectually giving academic support to neo-Darwinians that constricts the scope IN THE SAME POWER all people have.
Thus without a clearer description of this "limitation" to development( I have presented my own idea on probability spaces here on EvC) I can IN NO WAY see ID as alternative VIABLE OR NOT. Design detection in fact takes evolutionary theory to extrasolarsystem places the current construction of its niche CAN NOT approach as fast. You DO NOT need to catch the parameter as an argument both from Darwinists and Creationists.
What is missing or perhaps I have not looked hard enough is clear working up to cope with the difference of a product and purpose. Money is a bottom line but it is not the bottom but it is not a web bot either.
The Morris' HAVE kept "the issue" alive and finally I can see -through-this frog's fog. I even suspect that seed ferns might construct a viable hierachy of types prophetic to identical species of seed plants that cross not the progeniture that the purpose but not the product can NOT cross. The logic does go in (a)place of circularity but it is not "circular".
One does not even have a "need" to 'destroy' individualistic Organacist darwinism of any orthogonality as there are plenty of reductionistic potential sources of information to investigate the art of doing what was right by writing on use of equilibria where currently the analysis failed students of the subject from any embranchment of learning. The US has more. We need to show others instead of NOT defining the physical teleology within instrumentalism of its scope.
if you would like to comment on
quote:
Evolutionary biologists look at a cell and see the effects of material mechanisms, most notably natural selection and random variation. If Morris wants simply to say that these scientists are being willfully ignorant, instances of those who suppress the truth as in Romans 1, then there is no point even in introducing a concept like "organized complexity." In that case, Morris should simply say that the design in creation is self-evident. End of story.
within the content of this thread
please feel free
------------------------------------------
Freedom is one thing. Being egoistical like Darwin or me for this matter, another. I am not proud of how I learned all this but I did.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 04-26-2005 10:44 AM

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