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Author Topic:   Would confirmation of the "Biblical Exodus" add any support for God
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 1 of 56 (595177)
12-07-2010 7:45 AM


It is sometimes argued by creationists that certain Biblical accounts and events are evidence for the existence of God. Using the Exodus as an example, this thread will explore the rationale that leads from "the Exodus was real event of history" to the conclusion that "God exists."
A side discussion will inevitably develop around this question: "Using the scientific method, how do we figure out what the evidence is telling us?" For example, how do we know that a chariot wheel found at the bottom of the Red Sea came from the Exodus? Or, given that the Exodus really happened, how do we establish scientifically the accuracy of the details in the Biblical account, or more specifically for one example, how do we know God parted the waters, or even that the waters parted at all? Obtaining answers to these types of questions would be a key aspect of this thread.
But the key question is that even if we're able to reach some rough agreements about dates, events, travel routes, number of people, how does one get from "the Exodus happened" to "God exists"? Whatever rationale is identified, it must be one that is sufficiently nuanced that it doesn't reach wrong conclusions about other similar circumstances. For example, this rationale cannot begin with "Troy exists" to reach the conclusion that "Athena, Eris, Aphrodite, Zeus and Hera exist."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 56 (595178)
12-07-2010 7:48 AM


Thread Begun from Proposed New Topics Forum
This thread was begun based upon discussions in the Would confirmation of the "Biblical Exodus" add any support for God's existence thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
Edited by Admin, : Fix forum link.

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 3 of 56 (595180)
12-07-2010 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-07-2010 7:45 AM


If the exodus happened it would go a long way to the credibility of the Bible tough it would not provide much support for God.
What would provide support would be:
-If one found the way the jews travled and found a sea that had evidence of being parted by the breth of god (wind) my guess is the flor would still show evidence of it being blown on by a high velocity wind.
- If all the 10 plagues happened in a relatively short time as the bible says and that at least a few natural causes could be explained away for instance in times of hunger Egyptians feed their firstborns double the ration of others in the family and if the grain was say moldy the firstborns would have a grater chance of dying from eating it because they ate more.
- A golden calf under a mountain and god residing on top of that mountain
.....

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 4 of 56 (595182)
12-07-2010 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-07-2010 7:45 AM


jar writes:
But the key question is that even if we're able to reach some rough agreements about dates, events, travel routes, number of people, how does one get from "the Exodus happened" to "God exists"? Whatever rationale is identified, it must be one that is sufficiently nuanced that it doesn't reach wrong conclusions about other similar circumstances. For example, this rationale cannot begin with "Troy exists" to reach the conclusion that "Athena, Eris, Aphrodite, Zeus and Hera exist."
I agree with you.
Surely the only evidence of God in the bible is his contact with people and miracles.
Since an exodus is not a miracle and neither does it require god to contact people, I see no reason for the exodus to support the existance of god.
But I have normally seen the exodus discussed under different circumstances:
Theist: "The Bible is all true."
Atheist: "No it isn't."
Theist: "Name something in the Bible that is not true."
Atheist: "The Exodus."
I would expect the theist's thoughts to be:
1) The Exodus happened.
2) Therefore nothing in the Bible has been disproved.
3) Thefore the Bible is true.
4) Therefore God exists.
The exodus is mainly used as corroborative evidence of god rather than conclusive proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 7:45 AM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 56 (595190)
12-07-2010 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by frako
12-07-2010 8:27 AM


add credibility of the Bible?
Frako writes:
If the exodus happened it would go a long way to the credibility of the Bible tough it would not provide much support for God.
Why would it add support for even the Bible?
Does the actual existence of the City of Troy add support for the veracity of the Odyssey?
The Bible is a collection of stories written by different authors, edited over thousands of years. If one part happened to be shown to be historically accurate, how would that add support for some other story?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 56 (595191)
12-07-2010 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Panda
12-07-2010 8:55 AM


Remember, I am not just a theist but a Christian.
Panda writes:
I would expect the theist's thoughts to be:
1) The Exodus happened.
2) Therefore nothing in the Bible has been disproved.
3) Thefore the Bible is true.
4) Therefore God exists.
The exodus is mainly used as corroborative evidence of god rather than conclusive proof.
Well, I'm a theist and so let's look at your argument as presented above through a theist's eyes.
First issue, item three is not sound. as I point out in the response above, if one story of a collection of stories even by the same author happened to be shown to be factually true, it does not imply that a different story even by the same author is factually true.
Even if the Exodus could be confirmed (and so far I have not seen anyone present a way to confirm that the Exodus even happened), all that it can show is that one particular event is true.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 4 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 8:55 AM Panda has replied

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 Message 8 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 11:18 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 56 (595196)
12-07-2010 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
12-07-2010 7:45 AM


Support Hose
Let me see if I have this whole argument right in my head.
Which of the following statements are supportable?
1) If God exists, the collection of books known as the Bible are literally true.
2) God exists (supportable or not?)
3) The events in the modern day translations of the books of the Bible are unsupportable. (True or False) Or maybe unknown?
The reason I would say that some of the events are supportable is based only on stories reporting eyewitness testimony from that era. My conclusion, that the Bible is unsupportable and that God is unsupportable does not interfere with my personal beliefs.

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 8 of 56 (595197)
12-07-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
12-07-2010 10:04 AM


Re: Remember, I am not just a theist but a Christian.
jar writes:
Well, I'm a theist and so let's look at your argument as presented above through a theist's eyes.
Maybe I took too much for granted, but I hoped that when I said "theist" it was understood that I meant "theist that believes that the Exodus supports a belief in God".
Well, hopefully I've clarified it now.
jar writes:
First issue, item three is not sound. as I point out in the response above, if one story of a collection of stories even by the same author happened to be shown to be factually true, it does not imply that a different story even by the same author is factually true.
And the reverse is true too. A false story does not prove a whole book wrong.
A person's belief in the bible being true could be brought into doubt if someone showed that it isn't all true.
But if others fail to prove that the bible contains false information, then all believers can continue to believe.
A lack of disproof allows believers to continue to believe everything in the bible.
And most people don't like having to change their beliefs - it tends to cause cognitive dissonance.
(Granted, a completely irrational person wouldn't care either way - even if the pope found a missing page saying "All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.")
jar writes:
Even if the Exodus could be confirmed (and so far I have not seen anyone present a way to confirm that the Exodus even happened), all that it can show is that one particular event is true.
But if you were defending your bible from people claiming that "The exodus never happened therefore your bible is wrong!" then evidence of the exodus would be very welcome.
I think the exodus issue is often meant to break the 'inerrant' bible claims (mainly made by 'literalists').
But IMHO I don't think it is much use for anything else.
Edited by Panda, : used wrong word

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 9 of 56 (595198)
12-07-2010 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
12-07-2010 9:57 AM


Re: add credibility of the Bible?
The Bible is a collection of stories written by different authors, edited over thousands of years. If one part happened to be shown to be historically accurate, how would that add support for some other story?
It would ad support in a way that not everything in the bible is totaly made up, and not everything got heavily distorted by time re telling and rewriting.
It might get some serious archaeologist to follow some other stories to see what actually happened.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 56 (595200)
12-07-2010 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Panda
12-07-2010 11:18 AM


so next step.
So if someone took the step that the Exodus as a fact means support for the existence of their God, does the fact of the existence of Troy support the existence of Zeus, Hera, Athena, Eris and Aphrodite?
How would the two differ?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 11:18 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 11 of 56 (595201)
12-07-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
12-07-2010 11:48 AM


Re: so next step.
jar writes:
So if someone took the step that the Exodus as a fact means support for the existence of their God, does the fact of the existence of Troy support the existence of Zeus, Hera, Athena, Eris and Aphrodite?
How would the two differ?
This has been addressed in my first post. Message 4
I am not sure why you are repeating your question.

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 Message 10 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 11:48 AM jar has replied

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 12 of 56 (595202)
12-07-2010 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
12-07-2010 9:57 AM


Re: add credibility of the Bible?
Frako writes:
Frako writes:
If the exodus happened it would go a long way to the credibility of the Bible tough it would not provide much support for God.
Why would it add support for even the Bible?
jar writes:
Does the actual existence of the City of Troy add support for the veracity of the Odyssey?
The Bible is a collection of stories written by different authors, edited over thousands of years. If one part happened to be shown to be historically accurate, how would that add support for some other story?
It wouldn't support any other Biblical story any more than, as you pointed out the Troy Bit although I would have said the Illiad. Each story would have to stand on its own. One other point is how much of the story must be confirmed? Just finding that a group of related peoples left Egypt and settled in Canaan 40 years later doesn't go very far in confirming that thew Exodus occurred, but could show that at leat part of the story is tru which is what occurs in most mythology, that is there is some truth in it.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 56 (595203)
12-07-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by bluescat48
12-07-2010 11:54 AM


Re: add credibility of the Bible?
The reason I mentioned the Odyssey is that it is a second story (although possibly by the same author). The question I was addressing was whether finding that one story in might have a factual base adds support for some other story?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 12 by bluescat48, posted 12-07-2010 11:54 AM bluescat48 has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 14 of 56 (595204)
12-07-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by bluescat48
12-07-2010 11:54 AM


Re: add credibility of the Bible?
One other point is how much of the story must be confirmed?
For the exodus
- Moses a hieroglyph somewhere should be found
- That a large number left Egypt at the same time
- That the Pharaohs army god killed in the pursuit
- That all those plagues happened in a short time interval
At least this much so we can talk about exodus being a possibility, anything more we could talk about the details that took place.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 56 (595205)
12-07-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Panda
12-07-2010 11:53 AM


Re: so next step.
To see if someone can show how the two examples differ.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 11 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 11:53 AM Panda has replied

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