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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 2 of 566 (595336)
12-08-2010 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


what the hell
Dawn Bertot asks:
Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion?
And I would ask if a valid, supportable reason to remain faithful be offered?
Ah, but you asked first.
If I give you my answer, will you answer mine?
My answer: It's all about intelligence and understanding of things. The more you are aware, the more you find out these things that you were taught to believe in ARE WRONG.
Before you scream INVALID, NOT SUPPORTED, yes, I understand that my view is not yours. However, as we hopefully crawl out of the 1530's I am fairly optimistic that - even if you THROW OUT all the people here in this forum that you disagree with - the overwhelming majority of the others, when it comes down to the crunch, will throw their vote to the side that is calm and methodical, almost - neigh, most certainly will be - boring us to tears, showing the details of the carefully constructed experiments designed to completely remove any apriori bias.
The people who are making such investigations are those who have (1) spent a lot of money & time in their lives to remove such bias, and (2) have excelled in performing their duties, their work, their descriptive reports, their peer-reviewed acceptance and their tested veracity of the conclusions they reach around the world by completely different scientists. For anyone to have the notion of challenging their position without having first reached the same stature in accomplishments in the field in question (i.e. a PEER) is such an insult to the whole concept of education! The nerve of the idiots who claim the people who took the time to learn didn't learn! Are they being brainwashed? Every single one? How many so far? Millions? WTF! What a foul insult to spit upon these soldiers of mankind!
So, no, I choose to respect them and - since I have also dabbled in the investigations enough to see that you really do need to be exacting and measure everything carefully, and knowing that you cannot advance without mastering the techniques of scientific procedure, - no - I choose to accept their conclusions and choose to accept the notion that they also can be immediately adjusted in the future. Those that formulate conclusions without adhering to such exacting rules just don't have the same credulity. Wouldn't you want to make sure nothing "funny" was going on?
Based on this, the notion of some silly fairytale passed down mostly by word of mouth looks kind of wimpy, something that people who haven't understood what it truly means to measure things would do.
My valid, supportable reason for me is embodied in the respect I have for those millions who have made the journey to confirmation (a term you might be familiar with, but is slightly different here) by peer-reviewed journals of discovery.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-08-2010 3:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 19 of 566 (595468)
12-08-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by dwise1
12-08-2010 4:02 PM


Dwise1 writes:
The plain fact is that except for that very stern don't do it!, the Bible really doesn't have anything to say about deconversion.
There is that story of the new convert who was ready to join up with the Apostles & Jesus, but first wanted to take some time to bury his father. Jesus tells him to come along right now, and forget about his dad, saying something to the effect of "Let the dead bury the dead." This shows up at the end of the Gregory Peck masterpiece "To Kill A Mockingbird" when the sheriff utters that exact line. It also shows up in Dylan's "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue" with the last verse line "Forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you." In context with the other famous Jesus line about returning with a Sword, we find that Jesus wasn't much the peace hippy dude as we might have liked. He not all that he was cracked up to be. Had a lot of cool things to say, but in the end comes off as a pretty deluded insane wacko.
Dawn, I suspect that you imagine that deconversion always results in atheism. I submit that it does not always, but rather it often results in another more functional (or at least less dysfunctional) form of the same religion.
You can deconvert from Atheism, too. For example, RAZD has done that. I might suspect, that in his case, it was some kind of a Eureka!-like synthesis of the marvelousness of the entire universe, not a deluded Intelligent Design Institute view, but an even simpler snap of the fingers. However, RAZD has abundantly made it clear that it is a private matter and not up for display here. So we can only speculate.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by dwise1, posted 12-08-2010 4:02 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 101 of 566 (596247)
12-14-2010 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
12-13-2010 10:36 PM


Ringo opines:
The OP seems to ask for reasons why anybody would deconvert, not just you. I don't think you "should" deconvert. Frankly, I'm just glad you're not on my side.
SHHHHHHHH! Dawn is one of our best ever undercover plants for deconversion!!!!

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 12-13-2010 10:36 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by dwise1, posted 12-14-2010 1:35 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied
 Message 112 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-14-2010 9:36 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 165 of 566 (596471)
12-15-2010 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dawn Bertot
12-14-2010 9:29 AM


Dawn asks:
So exactly what side are you on and where is it headed?
Well, since we are all on the next Titanic, it really doesn't matter.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-14-2010 9:29 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 247 of 566 (596811)
12-17-2010 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by dwise1
12-16-2010 3:24 PM


Re: Huge Deconversion Rates
dwise1 writes:
This article demonstrates yet again that deconversion is a very real phenomenon and not something that Dawn can merely poo-poo away, like he does the rest of reality. And that it is indeed a very great and growing problem for churches, one that they must take very seriously.
I'm not seeing the problem here.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by dwise1, posted 12-16-2010 3:24 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by dwise1, posted 12-17-2010 2:56 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 308 of 566 (597278)
12-20-2010 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Dawn Bertot
12-18-2010 11:17 PM


Re: How to test writings.
Dawn asks:
If neither were not, who cares who Jesus was correct? At best he was a liar and the prophets were insane because they believed they had performed miracles
At best? Not at all. There's a lot good stuff to read in there. A lot of points about human civilization and how they began to formulate codifications as approximations of civilized laws in its primitive days. Perhaps the best function of the Bible (whatever that is) is to demonstrate how frail the human mind is and how easily large percentages of them can be fooled at once. We should do everything we can to preserve it as a record of our mistaken history. Keep up the good work. Anthropology needs all the help it can get.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 11:17 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 309 of 566 (597281)
12-20-2010 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Dawn Bertot
12-19-2010 6:50 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn completely loons out again with:
If someone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason?
I have clearly shown a unity of doctrine in the main purpose of the scriptures to begin with, Christ.
Who cares about what YOU think...IF SOMEONE. Can't you read? The question begins with "IF SOMEONE" - is that YOU? Not necessarily. Anybody could be that someone. In fact we already know that you are not that someone. The OP asks NOT if there is anything to deconvert YOU. It asks "Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion?"
Aside from the fact that you have NOT clearly shown a unity, that isn't the point here: If someone NOT YOU reads some bible that they had been told to believe was telling the Truth and instead, upon their own complete analysis, decides that there is no unity of doctrine or theme, are they not fully justified in deconverting?
If Osama bin Laden takes another look at the book he believes in and decides that it is nothing more than a good collection of parables and morality stories, so he deconverts, surely you would agree that this a valid, supportable reason for deconversion?
If anyone else BUT YOU takes another look at the book he or she believes in and decides that it is nothing more than a good collection of parables and morality stories, so he deconverts, surely you would agree that this a valid, supportable reason for deconversion?
Here - imagine if you had started this topic:
Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for my own deconversion?
You would get about 6 or so simple replies:
No.
I'm sad that you are lost.
Anyway, Merry Christmas!
Edited by xongsmith, : replaced wrong word

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 6:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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