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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 267 of 566 (597002)
12-18-2010 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Dawn Bertot
12-18-2010 10:31 PM


Re: How to test writings.
Being inspired does not mean that what they wrote was right, was prophecy or that YOU can understand or have even read either the Old or New Testaments.
We can actually check to see what was written.
If you have something you wish us to examine, please give us chapter and verse. So far every example you have mentioned has turned out to actually refute your assertions.
and then ... maybe you can actually address the issues raised.
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 10:31 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 11:00 PM jar has replied
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 11:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 270 of 566 (597006)
12-18-2010 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Dawn Bertot
12-18-2010 11:00 PM


Re: How to test writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Are you afraid to answer the question I put to you. If you are then, just say so
First, I did answer the questions you asked; in case you missed the answer I will repeat them for you.
quote:
Being inspired does not mean that what they wrote was right, was prophecy or that YOU can understand or have even read either the Old or New Testaments.
We can actually check to see what was written.
If you have something you wish us to examine, please give us chapter and verse. So far every example you have mentioned has turned out to actually refute your assertions.
and then ... maybe you can actually address the issues raised.
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?
Dawn Bertot writes:
can you check to see and understand what Gods overall intentions and purposes were by giving inspiration to the writer?
Too funny. What God's overall intentions and purposes were is irrelevant; we can read what was written.
If you want to pretend that there is something there that was NOT written, well, fine. Fantasy is always popular.
If you actually have something you think is supportable, there is a thread devoted to the subject.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 11:00 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 276 of 566 (597013)
12-18-2010 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Dawn Bertot
12-18-2010 11:17 PM


Re: How to test writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Since I can find an obvious and clear theme between the testaments, atleast attested to by the Nt writers. perhaps you could go to the Koran and find the some sort of theme
Yes, we all agree that YOU see some obvious and clear theme between the testaments, but that is irrelevant to the questions I asked, as is the Qur'an.
In case you missed them, here are the questions you were asked.
quote:
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?
Note that I asked if what I described would be a sufficient reason.
If someone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason?
Remember, in case you have forgotten, that the topic is "Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion ".
Edited by jar, : left out the word see in "...YOU see some..."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 11:17 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 11:38 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 280 of 566 (597017)
12-18-2010 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Dawn Bertot
12-18-2010 11:38 PM


How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
jar writes:
{If s}omeone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason?
No, for two reasons. One you have ignored the obvious and clear evidence that lends support to the scriptures verses other writings we have already discussed
Secondly, based on a lack of and ignoring that evdience you have rejected even the notion that it may be inspired by God
Which renders your approach to discredit Christ silly, seeing you dont even believe the writers you use to discredit him.
Strange logic
Dawn Bertot
First, if you think you have actually presented any evidence, please provide a link to the post where you included that evidence.
Again, if you can show where I "rejected even the notion that it may be inspired by God", then provide a link to that post.
If you can show that I at any time have tried to discredit Christ, please provide a link to that message.
Remember Dawn, people here can actually check what has been posted just as we can check to see what is actually written in the Old and New Testament.
Finally, you still have not addressed the question. I'll try yet again in the hope that you will understand what is being asked.
If someone looks at the Bible and finds no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason?
There is nothing in there about YOUR opinions, it is a straight forward question related to their findings. If they look at the Bible and find no unity of doctrine (and note that you have never shown such a unity of doctrine) and theme (and note that you have never shown that there is a common theme or explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"), would that be sufficient reason?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-18-2010 11:38 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 6:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 287 of 566 (597123)
12-19-2010 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Dawn Bertot
12-19-2010 6:50 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
jar writes:
Again, if you can show where I "rejected even the notion that it may be inspired by God", then provide a link to that post.
Wow that some fine sidestepping son
Jar, do you believe (that from your perspective that the Old testament prophets were inspired of God?
Yes, No, I dont know, theres no way to tell, etc, etc, etc.
Dawn, those questions were answered way back in Message 254 where I pointed out to you that:
quote:
Utter nonsense Dawn.
Whether the writers were inspired by God has absolutely nothing to do with whether what they wrote refers to Jesus.
The way you test the claimed prophecies is to look at what was actually written and then compare that to what was later written.
If you think that you can support the validity of some Old Testament prophecy of Jesus, then present the chapter and verse either in a thread devoted to that topic, or here.
If you wish I am happy to discuss your alleged prophecies just as I addressed the one where you claimed Isaiah 50:6 was about Jesus (see Message 226).
Dawn Bertot writes:
I have clearly shown a unity of doctrine in the main purpose of the scriptures to begin with, Christ
You have made that claim many times but have yet to actually present any evidence to support your assertions.
We know that you like to just repeat points that have been refuted as though they have not been addressed but people here can check back through the thread and actually see what was written, just as we can with the Old and New Testaments.
For example in the very post you are replying to I asked for links to the messages where you provided the evidence you claim you have presented. Funny how you don't seem to be able to provide those links.
I wonder why?
Dawn Bertot writes:
jar writes:
explained how that could possibly be true since there is no such thing as "The Bible"),
If God is its author and the prophets were speaking by his authority and inspiration, it is a BOOK and has the unity of theme I demonstrated between the OT prophets and the ones in the NEW
No, to answer your question directly, that would not be suffiecient reason to deconvert, because, they have not looked hard enough and would have ingnored both reason and revelation. anyone can walk away from anything, thinking this or that, or that they are justified, but they are not doing it for a good reason, if the dont see unity of theme and purpose. Its to easy to miss
Jar, is the Bible Old or New or both inspired by God, in your opinion? its really not a hard question to answer
Dawn Bertot
As usual, it appears that all you can do is pretend that your issues have not been addressed (see above and Message 267 and Message 270).
In addition you did not even address the issue that you quoted when I pointed out that there is no such thing as "The Bible". There is no universally accepted Canon (you do know what a Canon is don't you?), no universal list of what books are included in the Bible. The smallest Canon recognizes only those books that had likely been canonized at the time of Jesus, the first five books of the Old Testament; the largest Canon includes over eighty books.
You did know that didn't you?
Finally, your argument is just plain silly. How can you know they did not look hard enough. If YOU can't show evidence of your claimed Unity of Theme and Purpose; and so far you have provided no support for your assertion, what makes you think it is there?
Dawn, if I can easily provide links to the messages where I address your issues, why is it you can never provide links to message where you actually provide the support and evidence you keep claiming to have provided?
Is it possible that the reason is ... you really have never provided the support in the first place?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 6:50 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 8:20 PM jar has replied
 Message 289 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 8:30 PM jar has replied
 Message 296 by arachnophilia, posted 12-19-2010 8:57 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 290 of 566 (597134)
12-19-2010 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Dawn Bertot
12-19-2010 8:20 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Jar I know you think you understand what you are saying from a logical standpoint and proposition, but you dont.
Listen carefully. The same books and prophets you quote are filled with the prophets claiming miracles and involvement in miraculous activity. if that is not true then there is no reason to beleive the physical facts they claim to be speaking about either correct
So if the test is to LOOK AT WHAT IS WRITTEN and what is written is unreliable and inaccurate, what would naturally follow, both logically and factually?
Now also, if there is no involvement by God in those claims of the miraculous, then there is no reason to believe anything they have to say, not to mention, Messiahs and kingdoms correct?
So, inspiration is both a logical, structural and Biblical concept that has to be accepted or rejected, PRIOR to any investigation about Messiahs, kingdoms and claims
Bullshit.
The issue is to actually look at what is written and then we can compare that to your claims or latter authors claims.
It is irrelevant whether or not it is inspired; it is what was written.
Dawn, all of this was addressed in Message 287, Message 254, Message 226, Message 267 and Message 270.
It is very telling that yet again you provide NO support for any of your assertions.
Whether or not the writing were inspired is irrelevant, the issue is "What is actually written."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 8:20 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 8:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 291 of 566 (597135)
12-19-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Dawn Bertot
12-19-2010 8:30 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn, all of this was addressed in Message 287, Message 254, Message 226, Message 267 and Message 270.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 8:30 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 298 of 566 (597142)
12-19-2010 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by arachnophilia
12-19-2010 8:57 PM


On Canons
Yes, in the Judaic canon that is likely true, but IIRC (and I'm old and so may have forgotten) I believe that the canon of the Samaritan Orthodox Church only recognizes the first five books as canonical.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by arachnophilia, posted 12-19-2010 8:57 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 299 of 566 (597143)
12-19-2010 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Dawn Bertot
12-19-2010 8:36 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Again Dawn, that is irrelevant to the topic or the issues.
We can read what was written and compare that to what you or a later author claims.
We are not discussing miracles but rather YOUR claim that there is some unity of theme and purpose.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2010 8:36 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 312 of 566 (597310)
12-20-2010 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 7:50 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
He is attempting to demonstrate that the Christ mentioned in the NT, is not who and what the prophets were speaking about
And guess what. So far in EVERY case examined I have shown that to actually be the case. There is even a thread devoted just to that.
If YOU think there is an Old Testament prophecy that refers to Jesus, please post the chapter and verse in that thread so your claim can be questioned and challenged.
Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
Edited by jar, : add a link for Dawn to the appropriate thread

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 7:50 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 8:19 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 318 of 566 (597321)
12-20-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 8:19 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn, get serious.
Dawn, all of this was addressed in Message 287, Message 254, Message 226, Message 267 and Message 270 and Message 291.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
It really is that simple.
You made a claim, we can examine that claim.
jar writes:
Dawn Bertot writes:
He is attempting to demonstrate that the Christ mentioned in the NT, is not who and what the prophets were speaking about
And guess what. So far in EVERY case examined I have shown that to actually be the case. There is even a thread devoted just to that.
If YOU think there is an Old Testament prophecy that refers to Jesus, please post the chapter and verse in that thread so your claim can be questioned and challenged.
Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
Frankly Dawn, folk can read the posts in this thread and honestly, your arguments are as weak and pitiful as the god you try to market.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 8:19 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 11:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 324 of 566 (597393)
12-21-2010 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 11:35 PM


More links to evidence so perhaps Dawn will get a clue.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Oh, I am quite serious and asserting that inspiration does not matter, when you have no reason to believe that those writers are reliable in the first place makes no logical sense.
Yours, is a fallacy of the worst order.
I have asked you a question and asked you to give an example numerous times now and you simply refuse to answer it
Here it is again. Give me an example of something the prophets said of a miraculous or non-miraculous nature, that you can trust and why you trust it
And it has been pointed out to you that we can read what they actually wrote. Note the bolded parts from the very message you are replying to. You have been answered.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
quote:
Dawn, all of this was addressed in Message 287, Message 254, Message 226, Message 267 and Message 270 and Message 291.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
It really is that simple.
You made a claim, we can examine that claim.
We can trust that what we read is actually what is written.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Heres the extention of that challenge.
Give me an example of something that one of the prophets said, that does not apply to Christ
This should be simple enough, correct?
And that too has been covered in this thread in Message 93 and in Message 226 and as has been pointed out to you there is even a whole thread devoted to the topic at Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? where even more examples are given.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Unfortunately, you dont understand how evidence or the scriptures are understood, not to mention critical thinking
Frankly Dawn, folk can read the posts in this thread and honestly, your arguments are as weak and pitiful as the god you try to market.
Unfortunately Dawn it appears that even though many have tried to explain to you what prophecy was and how it is tested, you still don't understand.
Prophecy was a godly dope slap. It was God telling a messenger "Go say this to my people". It is NOT something that would be hard to understand, it was meant to be understood easily by all that heard it. It was NOT meant for people living thousands or even hundreds of years in the future, it was meant for those actually hearing the prophet.
And the actual question related to the topic also still remains unanswered:
quote:
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:29 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 326 of 566 (597402)
12-21-2010 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by frako
12-21-2010 9:41 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
frako writes:
No prophecies presented on this forum are actual prophecies and none have come to pass
I wouldn't go that far.
If you reread what was posted over in Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? I think you will find that many of the prophecies listed are fulfilled, just that they were not prophecies about Jesus.
For example, the Isaiah 7 prophecy was fulfilled, only a little over a half century before Jesus was even born.
Prophecy was meant for the immediate audience; it was saying "If you do this, this is what will happen".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by frako, posted 12-21-2010 9:41 AM frako has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 331 of 566 (597449)
12-21-2010 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 6:29 PM


Re: More links to evidence so perhaps Dawn will get a clue.
Dawn Bertot writes:
jar writes:
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
That is palpably, the most ignorant statement I have ever seen or read
"it does not matter whether they were reliable or accurate"
why dont you add "believable"
Give me a minute, I cant stop laughing
No one in any area of investigation, in any science would take such an approach
yet Jar proudly and confidently claims as much
Your a hoot man
Yes, we have seen you claim that.
But when will you explain why "That is palpably, the most ignorant statement I have ever seen or read"?
Are we not looking at what was written?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:29 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 333 of 566 (597452)
12-21-2010 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 6:44 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Buz has demonstrated that Israel regaining thier status as a nation, after having been scattered to the ends of the earth, that you are in possible error
No, not true. Buz has asserted that is a fact but has not provided any support for that position. He knows that it will not stand up to examination which is why he avoids repeating such nonsense in an open forum where he knows it will get torn to shreds.
BUT WAIT ... There's more ...
If I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:44 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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