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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 336 of 566 (597459)
12-21-2010 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 7:02 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
LOL
So God came out of Bethlehem Ephrathah and it is not talking about Jesus at all. Gottcha.
Good grief Dawn, go read the whole thing. Learn a little history.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 7:02 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 7:20 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 346 of 566 (597477)
12-21-2010 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 7:20 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Huh?
Again, where is there anything in that that refers to Jesus?
If someone actually looks at Micah 5
quote:
Micah 5 (New International Version, 2010)
Micah 5
A Promised Ruler From Bethlehem
1 Marshal your troops now, city of troops,
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel’s ruler
on the cheek with a rod.
2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.
3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor bears a son,
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
5 And he will be our peace
when the Assyrians invade our land
and march through our fortresses.
We will raise against them seven shepherds,
even eight commanders,
6 who will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
He will deliver us from the Assyrians
when they invade our land
and march across our borders.
7 The remnant of Jacob will be
in the midst of many peoples
like dew from the LORD,
like showers on the grass,
which do not wait for anyone
or depend on man.
8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations,
in the midst of many peoples,
like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
which mauls and mangles as it goes,
and no one can rescue.
9 Your hand will be lifted up in triumph over your enemies,
and all your foes will be destroyed.
10 In that day, declares the LORD,
I will destroy your horses from among you
and demolish your chariots.
11 I will destroy the cities of your land
and tear down all your strongholds.
12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.
13 I will destroy your idols
and your sacred stones from among you;
you will no longer bow down
to the work of your hands.
14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles
when I demolish your cities.
15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath
on the nations that have not obeyed me.
what we find is that it is talking about what happened at the time, NOT about God, NOT about Jesus. It is absolutely dealing with contemporary issues, looking for the Nation of Judah to stand up in support of the Nation of Israel against a specific threat at a specific time in history.
When YOU take a passage out of context and then try to shoehorn that into YOUR preconceived dogma, that is called "False Prophecy".
Do you know anything about the history of Israel and Judah at that time? If not, there are folk here that can try to educate you.
By the way, the Messiah in this passage is Cyrus. And the prophecy did come true.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 7:20 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 8:02 PM jar has replied
 Message 358 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 11:31 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 349 of 566 (597482)
12-21-2010 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 8:02 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
jar writes:
When YOU take a passage out of context and then try to shoehorn that into YOUR preconceived dogma, that is called "False Prophecy".
i did not take it out of context, the NT writers through inspiration, explained Gods meaning
is your indirect implication above that they were prophets of God and that they were inspired?
Micah claims to be inspired, are you claiming the same by your statement above about taking it out of context?
You cant eat your cake and have it Jar
Dawn bertot
There is no "implication", there is the flat out statement.
If someone takes it out of context then it is "False Prophecy".
I have no idea if Micah (and it's very likely that Micah did not even write much of what is included in Micah) was inspired. It is irrelevant. We can look at what was written and see if it came true.
Now it is understandable that the New Testament authors grabbed some of those passages and used them out of context, they expected Jesus to return.
But he didn't, he never ruled in Jerusalem. If you try to make it apply to Jesus, then it must be seen as another failed prophecy.
Edited by jar, : left out (was inspired)

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 8:02 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 352 of 566 (597490)
12-21-2010 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by arachnophilia
12-21-2010 10:38 PM


Re: scriptural unity
arachnophilia writes:
Dawn Bertot writes:
Not satisfied with this setup, the Catholics have given thier Church an earthly head, the Pope.
i take back what i said about the old testament. you haven't read the new testament, either.
quote:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16:18-19
jesus pretty clearly establishes someone to lead his church in an earthly capacity. peter, the first pope, was established by christ himself.
I imagine Dawn is also ignorant of the Apostolic Churches and that the Roman Catholic Church is but one see and that many of the churches in Club Christian would not be considered as Christian or as part of "his church" by Christ.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2010 10:38 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 359 of 566 (597539)
12-22-2010 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 11:31 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
And all that has been answered time after time.
We can read what is written. The test of whether a prophet was inspired was whether the message proved to be true and within the times of the initial audience.
In this case, the test was confirmed, Assyria did conquer Israel and later Judah and later Cyrus overcame Babylon and Assyria.
But it is NOT talking about Jesus.
If you read upthread I believe I have provided links to all of the posts where you have been answered and also provided a link to the thread where such material is actually on topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 11:31 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 11:59 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 361 of 566 (597550)
12-22-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 11:41 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Since you like context so much, tell me, when the writer claims inspiration, should we believe that as well?
No, most certainly not. The Bible tells us NOT to trust claims of inspiration and to test what has been said.
That has been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 11:41 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 363 of 566 (597554)
12-22-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 11:59 AM


How to test a prophets writings
Dawn Bertot writes:
By IT you mean the context correct? Why do you rely on the part of the context that supports you position, yet you reject the part of the context where the writer claims to have seen a vision of God or been told by God what to say.
Come on Dawn.
Please show where I do any of that?
By context, I mean the writings, for example Micah. I have even actually read Micah, and even quoted all of Micah 5 for your benefit and the benefit of the readers.
If you like, we can go even further in the discussion of the history of the period.
Oh wait, many of us already have. There is even a whole thread on the topic. In fact there are several threads here going back almost a decade, and so far NO ONE has been able to show that Micah was talking about Jesus.
The test is to look at what happened during the period when those that heard Micah's prophecy would have been alive.
Did what happen fulfill the prophecy?
Yup, and over 500 years before Jesus was even born.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 11:59 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:27 PM jar has replied
 Message 365 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:35 PM jar has replied
 Message 367 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 366 of 566 (597558)
12-22-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 12:27 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Speaking about inspiration jar writes
jar writes:
No, most certainly not. The Bible tells us NOT to trust claims of inspiration and to test what has been said.
That has been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread.
So the writers were not inspired and you use for you conclusion on this that it is the Bible that tell us to warn against such false inspiration, correct?
Tell me Jar which writer warns us against such false claims. My bet it is one of the writers that you also reject that has also claimed miracles and inspiration
But anyway, tell which writer out of the Bible it is that you use to help us watch for false prophets
I dont know whether you are joking or it is that you really dont understand how to think critically
Does what you said above make sense to you?
Im sure youve done alot of study but I dont think you have thought these issues through critically
Dawn Bertot
No Dawn, you again misrepresent what I have said.
I said that the Bible tells us not to trust claims pf prophecy but rather to test the content.
Read the very message that you are replying to.
quote:
Come on Dawn.
Please show where I do any of that?
By context, I mean the writings, for example Micah. I have even actually read Micah, and even quoted all of Micah 5 for your benefit and the benefit of the readers.
If you like, we can go even further in the discussion of the history of the period.
Oh wait, many of us already have. There is even a whole thread on the topic. In fact there are several threads here going back almost a decade, and so far NO ONE has been able to show that Micah was talking about Jesus.
The test is to look at what happened during the period when those that heard Micah's prophecy would have been alive.
Did what happen fulfill the prophecy?
Yup, and over 500 years before Jesus was even born.

We can tell that what Micah said was inspired by God because it all came true over 500 years before Jesus was even born.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:27 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 368 of 566 (597563)
12-22-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 12:35 PM


Re: How to test a prophets writings
What you post is just word salad, utter nonsense and misrepresentation.
See the post above.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:35 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 370 of 566 (597565)
12-22-2010 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 12:50 PM


Re: How to test a prophets writings
Dawn Bertot writes:
You cant eat you cake and hve it to Jar. If the writer WAS inspired as he claims, then not only was his prediction about Cyrus correct, but it would demonstrate that God was involved and the NT writers would let us know he was refering to Christ as well
Guess what Dawn, we test the writings of the New Testament folk the same way. BUT, when they make a claim that an earlier prophet was talking about Jesus, and when we look and see that what that prophet said had already come to pass over 500 years before Jesus was born, then we can be pretty sure that that they are saying is not inspired prophecy but only quote mining and marketing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 371 of 566 (597566)
12-22-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 12:53 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Wait a minute, wait a minute, hold the presses. Are you now claiming inspiration of and by God for Micah, or am I misunderstanding what I clearly see?
Dawn Bertot
I have never said otherwise. I said that what Micah said did not refer to Jesus. That claim (that it was referring to Jesus) was simply quote mining and marketing by the authors of the New Testament.
What Micah and Isaiah and Daniel and Zechariah said was likely inspired by God and also fulfilled over 500 years before Jesus was born.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:53 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 1:12 PM jar has not replied
 Message 375 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2010 10:12 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 377 of 566 (597684)
12-23-2010 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Dawn Bertot
12-23-2010 10:12 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
As I proceed with extreme caution here and given the fact that you have atleast indirectly admitted the existence of God and inspiration of those prophets, what would prevent the writers of the NT having the same inspiration, that was characteristic of the OT prophets, especially Christ?
Dawn, I am a Christian. I have not questioned the existence of GOD in this thread.
The answer is that we look at what was said. It is irrelevant whether or not someone was inspired. When we look at what the writers (not prophets) of the books of the New Testament we examine what is written the same way that we do the Old Testament.
The second issue is that I do not believe God is as stupid as most Christians describe Her to be.
Prophecy is as I have said before, a Godly Dope Slap. It is God sending a message to the people that hear that message. It is immediate, meant for the audience of the time, not for those living hundreds or thousands of years later.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2010 10:12 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-25-2010 7:10 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 384 of 566 (597937)
12-25-2010 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Dawn Bertot
12-25-2010 7:10 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
jar writes:
Prophecy is as I have said before, a Godly Dope Slap. It is God sending a message to the people that hear that message. It is immediate, meant for the audience of the time, not for those living hundreds or thousands of years later.
Ill overlook the fact that your above comment is as dogmatic as it sounds. Assuming or presuming what God has in mind, then indirectly suggesting that no one elses conclusions could be correct concerning prophecy, its meanings and its applications , is of course not sound or rational
For example, Peter claiming that he and the other Apostles "had a more sure word of Prophecy", because they were eyewitnesses to his majesty. Probably not refering exclusiely to the transfiguration, but to thier entire journey with the Christ
So How did YOU decide that prophecy, has a single meaning? Seeing that the listeners would at that time have no way of understanding whats or who it refered to, unless its interpretation was immediately given. It wasnt
How did you decide on your own that another probable inspired writer, could not give Gods meaning in another time or that another inspired writer could not explicate Gods overall intentions in the prophets/
Why wouldnt you use the same criteria that lets you believe the OT prophets were "probably inspired", to decide the same for the NT prophets
You really haven't read the Bible have you? The Bible tells us how to test prophecy.
And claiming inspiration or having had a more sure word of Prophecy has NO value until the actual prophecy is tested.
This isn't dogmatic, it is simply making the assumption that GOD is not as stupid as you claim.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-25-2010 7:10 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 414 of 566 (598120)
12-28-2010 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by Dawn Bertot
12-28-2010 3:25 AM


Re: "line upon line"
And you once again misrepresent what is actually in the Bible.
When you say:
Dawn Bertot writes:
Example, Paul states that the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ
"in the fullness of time God sent forth his son into the world"
you are just taking Galatians out of context.
quote:
Galatians 4
1 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, Abba, Father. 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-28-2010 3:25 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 442 of 566 (598631)
01-01-2011 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Iblis
01-01-2011 2:55 PM


Re: other scriptures
And of course, that is just one Canon and actually a subset of the Western Canon, and there are many other Canons.
It seems somewhat funny that inspiration could not even extend to a list of what books should be in or out.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Iblis, posted 01-01-2011 2:55 PM Iblis has not replied

  
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