Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion

Jar I know you think you understand what you are saying from a logical standpoint and proposition, but you dont.Listen carefully. The same books and prophets you quote are filled with the prophets claiming miracles and involvement in miraculous activity. if that is not true then there is no reason to beleive the physical facts they claim to be speaking about either correctSo if the test is to LOOK AT WHAT IS WRITTEN and what is written is unreliable and inaccurate, what would naturally follow, both logically and factually?Now also, if there is no involvement by God in those claims of the miraculous, then there is no reason to believe anything they have to say, not to mention, Messiahs and kingdoms correct?So, inspiration is both a logical, structural and Biblical concept that has to be accepted or rejected, PRIOR to any investigation about Messiahs, kingdoms and claimsSo now, I will ask the direct question again. Is the OT and the prophets claims to inspiration a reality, in your mind. Yes or No?I know you think you know how to debate this logically, but as indicated by numerous posts you do not.Do you now see the relevance of whether you believe it is inspired or not?If there were no miracles or the miraculous you might have a valid logical argumentBecause there are, you do not, Simply because WHAT IS WRITTEN, about historical facts, may be as unreliable as the claimed miracles, correct?Inspired by God or not?Dawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Ironically you have failed to address the only question that matters. or at best you you have failed to answer it DIRECTLYDawn Bertot

Is "what is actually written" about the miracles and the miraculous true and can it be trusted?Dawn Bertot

Could any evidence or argument that presently exists, convert you to the idea that Christ is the Messiah?No, the thread should not end, because we both have strong opinions You keep telling me this but provide no Passage from any prophet that should make me believe that Christ did not meet the
requirementsIm sorry but to believe that inspiration in a book repleat with miracles, is not relevant, makes no logical sense While I said INTENDED, I should have said it was not in Gods original plan for them to have an earthly king.His intention in giving them a king was to demonstrate that they actually needed no earthly king and should not have insisted upon on one . They had a king, it was GodThose are Gods on words, not mine. Those words were spoken before any earthly king was in placeIts always a human charactetistic to try and suplant Gods wishes.Here is another example. Christ is the head f the Church. He reigns from heaven as head of the Church.Not satisfied with this setup, the Catholics have given thier Church an earthly head, the Pope.There is no room for such, in reason or revelationSuch is human natureDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

I said nothing about your claim being outrageous, I said it made no logical or rational sense sense, without inspiration And you and Jar continue to ignore in argumentation form that to use or imply that the prophets words in one area should be considered as rational, because you are using them to prove a point, then ignore the rest of what they have to say because it is not reliable, makes no logical or biblical senseHere is an example.Should I trust Isa's words when in Chapter six verse one he says, "I saw the Lord sitting on his throne in heaven and his train filled the temple"Are these words true and reliableDawn Bertot

But more importantly, they are arguments of a logical and rational nature The assertion of "unreasoned" is not an argument, its an assertion I was right, you were the ninth grader Dont worry, you will learn as you go along, not to make assertions you cannot support. Thanks for admitting you do not have oneEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

HardlyTrying to rely on a source, that one one believes to be unreliable and inacurate, (as jar clearly does)to begin with, is complete nonsense.Thats the point DA, how can Jar decide thet they are "accurate" before inspired, when he believes thier claims of inspiration and miracles to be myth and made up stuff.I have asked him and Arch to provide me a statement from the prophets, non-miraculous in nature, that I could consider as reliable, if they can't believe or dont trust anything else they said of a miraculous nature.How in the world would you distinguish between the two? Which is reliable which is not? But he did if we are willing to agree and believe ALL the prophets have to say, concerning thier claims of miracles and inspirationhere is an example.Lets say Bush was still president and i told you i went to visit him in Washington at the white house in the oval office. Now there are four facts you can check. Washington, Bush, whitehouse and oval officeBut as I was telling you the story, I said as i was talking to them, him and his wife, and thier chairs began to rise up, a glow appeared around them and an angel placed crown on Bush's head.Now, you would even begin to question, whether I was actually there, much less having seen such an event, correct?Inspiration does NOT matter? You've got to be kidding meDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Son, I know you are trying to assist Jar in making sense out of what he is attempting, but there is no way, to extricate him from the worst from of contradiction he has involved himself inHe is attempting to demonstrate that the Christ mentioned in the NT, is not who and what the prophets were speaking aboutBy direct implication or outright assertion he is assuming the prophets were correct or accurate in their statements, of and about the the things the propheciedNow if he is saying as you have indicated that they are not accurate, it would follow logically, he has no way of knowing whether Christ was not the fulfillmentIf he is saying they are accurate, then he contradicts himself at other points where he says God does not exist and is not the author of the scriptures, or more specifically the prophetsPlease explain why my estimation in this matter is incorrect or invalid?I cant wait to here it Well perhaps he could tell us what it is that he HAS decided, in some logical fashionDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

So, you don't believe that the Holy Ghost plays a role in converting people to Christianity? I'm rather confident that nearly all Christians aside from you do. If you just don't like how I've worded it, then please suggest an alternative wording.Of course I do. However, what you were speaking about and what I responded to in that previous post was someones personal experience, they should FEEL literally, at or during conversion.Nowhere does the NT imply or state that you will feel something other than the knowledge and assurance, given his word, that you are now free from the bondage of sin.The herkie Jerkies and the other claimed feelings are not mentioned as a part of the conversion experienceIf it is then please provide the passage Wrong. Thats like saying I shouldnt believe in God because I dont feel it (something other than normal sensation) against the clear evidence of his exsistenceIOW, the evidence of God and the evidence that the scriptures is the Word of God, that which supports it, gives me assurance that my life now has purpose above and beyond the graveThe is no need for the Spirit to knock me down or give some sort of funny feeling. The evidence does that for meDawn Bertot

Wrong. But let me know when you have an actual argument, that is not a repetition of my original question, you would like to present. Id be happy to examine itDawn Bertot

My simple friend, you cant even get out of the starting gate to attempt such a feat, because you wont even tell us whether the OT prophets were accurate in their statements or estimationsHere it is again. Provide me with a statement/s from the prophets, of a miraculous or non-miraculous nature that you believe to be RELIABLE and ACCURATE, then tell me why you believe both or one is accurateThen you can get started on questioning Jesus' and the NT claims. Until then you cant even be taken serious from any rational or logical standpointheck, at this point I would like it if you would care tell me anything you believe about the OT, muchless the prophetsHave fun.Dawn Bertot

Still no argument from Panda. You really dont know anything about these topics or how to debate, do you?Be honest now, tell us the truth or atleast present an argumentPrehaps you could help Jar out of his problem. Atleast make some sort of groaning noise at an attempt related to the topicDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Thanks Mum

Oh, I am quite serious and asserting that inspiration does not matter, when you have no reason to believe that those writers are reliable in the first place makes no logical sense.Yours, is a fallacy of the worst order.I have asked you a question and asked you to give an example numerous times now and you simply refuse to answer itHere it is again. Give me an example of something the prophets said of a miraculous or non-miraculous nature, that you can trust and why you trust itHeres the extention of that challenge.Give me an example of something that one of the prophets said, that does not apply to ChristThis should be simple enough, correct? Unfortunately, you dont understand how evidence or the scriptures are understood, not to mention critical thinking Yeah, Ive heard all of your catchy phrases through the monthsNow, just present the phrase from the prophet that is applicable to the argument, that you believe is reliable and that demonstrates that Christ was not the fulfillmentWhy wont you do this?Dawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Micah 5 "Marshal your troops, O city of troops,afor a siege is laid against us.They will strike Israel’s ruleron the cheek with a rod.2But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,though you are small among the clansb of Judah,out of you will come for meone who will be ruler over Israel,whose originsc are from of old,from ancient times.d3Therefore Israel will be abandoneduntil the time when she who is in labor gives birthand the rest of his brothers returnto join the Israelites.4He will stand and shepherd his flockin the strength of the Lord,in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.And they will live securely, for then his greatnesswill reach to the ends of the earth.5And he will be their peace.Deliverance and DestructionWhen the Assyrian invades our landand marches through our fortresses,we will raise against him seven shepherds,even eight leaders of men. "Wow it is so cool that you chose this prophecy. This one nails not only the fact that Christ is the only fulfilment, but as the NT teaches, he would be one whos goings out and comings in are from everlastingChrist is God.Its not only a dual passage about those current events, but it establishes in both instances that it is God THAT IS the deliverer, WHETHER THEN OR NOWAbsolutely amazing. Its all about God whether then, at the time of the Christ, or nowOnce you understand the nature and purpose of scripture, you will understand that is and always will be just about Godthe theme never changed between the OlT and the New. God as deliever, whether in a physical way or a spiritual oneI cant thank you enough for providing that oneDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.