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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 329 of 566 (597445)
12-21-2010 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by jar
12-21-2010 9:31 AM


Re: More links to evidence so perhaps Dawn will get a clue.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
That is palpably, the most ignorant statement I have ever seen or read
"it does not matter whether they were reliable or accurate"
why dont you add "believable"
Give me a minute, I cant stop laughing
No one in any area of investigation, in any science would take such an approach
yet Jar proudly and confidently claims as much
Your a hoot man
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 9:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 6:42 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 332 of 566 (597450)
12-21-2010 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by frako
12-21-2010 9:41 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
The bible contradicts itself on many occasions
Those have been explained a thousand times over
the bible is wrong on lots of facts
Depending on whos explanation you accept
No prophecies presented on this forum are actual prophecies and none have come to pass
You are entitled to atleast, your opinion. Buz has demonstrated that Israel regaining thier status as a nation, after having been scattered to the ends of the earth, that you are in possible error
So it is reasnoble to conclude that the Bible is not the word of god and it is in fact a book written by mere mortals trying to push their morality upon the mases and trying to explain what they do not understand
its only reasonable if your above premesis are true, they are not
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by frako, posted 12-21-2010 9:41 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 6:49 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
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 Message 356 by frako, posted 12-22-2010 10:28 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 334 of 566 (597455)
12-21-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Coragyps
12-21-2010 6:41 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
How does it do that, DB? Are Romans really Assyrians? Does the New Testament talk about "seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men?"
This prophecy, like all deliverance prophecies are about God and God alone. There is an involvement of the current events and future events in the prophecy
the shepherds and leaders may have reference to some, then current even in Gods plan or they may have an explanation in the time of Christ
They may be a symbol of Gods power then or now. The numbers themself may be symbolic
How does it do that, DB?
it should seem obvious that there is a transition of thought about 'time', when he says,
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clansb of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose originsc are from of old,
from ancient times.
God is actually talking about himself. Iam the deliverer now and will eventually deliver the whole world out of bondage, by ones whos going and coming in, are from everlasting.
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Coragyps, posted 12-21-2010 6:41 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Taq, posted 12-21-2010 7:05 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 336 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 7:07 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 337 by Theodoric, posted 12-21-2010 7:09 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 338 by Theodoric, posted 12-21-2010 7:09 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 339 by Coragyps, posted 12-21-2010 7:13 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 340 of 566 (597466)
12-21-2010 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by jar
12-21-2010 7:07 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
So God came out of Bethlehem Ephrathah and it is not talking about Jesus at all. Gottcha.
Of course he did, since he was God born as a man. I did not say it was not talking about Jesus entirely, I said its main thrust is and only about God as a deliverer
Gottcha.
How exacally?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 7:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Panda, posted 12-21-2010 7:40 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 346 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 7:51 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 353 by arachnophilia, posted 12-21-2010 11:27 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 341 of 566 (597467)
12-21-2010 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Theodoric
12-21-2010 7:09 PM


Re: Please explain
"Can you explain this line by line bout how this is a prophecy and how it is fulfilled? I just don't see it.
Read the testaments as they were intended, as an illustration of God as a deliverer of his people, then you will."see it"
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Theodoric, posted 12-21-2010 7:09 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Theodoric, posted 12-21-2010 7:36 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 343 of 566 (597472)
12-21-2010 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Taq
12-21-2010 7:05 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
IOW, it can mean whatever you want it to mean.
This would be true, if I wrote the books of the NT, I was inspired by God to explain the fulfillment of the words he gave the prophets
Luckly, "you" and "I" are not the ones giving the meanings, this was accomplished by the same type of prophet in the NT, that Jar relies for his explanation in the OT prophets
Its not necessary for every word or idea to be explained in full for the NT writes to explain Gods overall plan
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Taq, posted 12-21-2010 7:05 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Taq, posted 12-22-2010 5:59 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 345 of 566 (597474)
12-21-2010 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Theodoric
12-21-2010 7:36 PM


Re: Please explain
Who decides how "they were intended" to be read? You must know of someon in charge since there are so many variations of how people believe "they were intended" to be read. I mean you wouldn't just spout nonsense would you?
Let the scriptures be thier own best interpreter. When speaking of understanding Gods plans, he says
"Though he be a fool or a wayfaring man, he shall not err therein"
Are you sure you not trying to miss it on purpose, closing your eyes to its simplicity
From Spurgeon's "Faith's Check Book"
092-The King's Highway
"The wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8)
"The way of holiness is so straight and plain that the simplest minds cannot go astray if they constantly follow it. The worldly wise have many twists and turns, and yet they make terrible blunders and generally miss their end. Worldly policy is a poor, shortsighted thing, and when men choose it as their road, it leads them over dark mountains. Gracious minds know no better than to do as the Lord bids them; but this keeps them in the King's highway and under royal protection."
Spurgeon
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Theodoric, posted 12-21-2010 7:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 348 of 566 (597480)
12-21-2010 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by jar
12-21-2010 7:51 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
When YOU take a passage out of context and then try to shoehorn that into YOUR preconceived dogma, that is called "False Prophecy".
i did not take it out of context, the NT writers through inspiration, explained Gods meaning
is your indirect implication above that they were prophets of God, the prophecy was fulfilled even though it had not happened and that they were inspired?
Micah claims to be inspired, are you claiming the same by your statement above about taking it out of context?
You cant eat your cake and have it, Jar
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 7:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 8:13 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 357 of 566 (597529)
12-22-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Blue Jay
12-21-2010 12:57 PM


I didn't mention "herkie jerkies" or feelings of any kind in my post, Dawn. In fact, I intentionally left out all mention of those things.
The only description I gave was "witness from the Holy Ghost."
Do you agree that a witness from the Holy Ghost is an integral part of conversion?
Yes, of course, but perhaps we should explore what you mean by witness and what I believe.
The only witness that is recognizable is that of God;s Word. It is sufficient enough for belief to conversion
Food to the soul
Also, the validity of a decision to convert/deconvert is entirely based on an assessment of the empirical evidence for the truth of the religion in question. I argue that, regardless of which religion we're talking about, the evidence is wholly lacking, and that deconversion is thus perfectly valid.
Lacking, how, where and why?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Blue Jay, posted 12-21-2010 12:57 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Blue Jay, posted 12-27-2010 11:42 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 358 of 566 (597533)
12-22-2010 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by jar
12-21-2010 7:51 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
what we find is that it is talking about what happened at the time, NOT about God, NOT about Jesus.
Were the writers of the Old Testament or New, inspired of God, in your estimation Jar? Yes or No
By the way, the Messiah in this passage is Cyrus. And the prophecy did come true.
Lets assume for a moment that you are correct about Cyrus. How did this man know in advance what would happen, if it came true, as you indicate.
Since, you have deemed the OT and its authors as unreliable and inaccurate, how would you KNOW, that this was the fulfillment of the prophets words,
How would you explain Cyrus, as his goings out and comings in from everlasting?
Not only is your logic faulty before you approach such a passage, you have absolutely no way of knowing that Cyrus was its fulfillment
the direct implication of such a statement implies that you would need to accept inspiration of some sort for your conclusion about Cyrus to be true.
If you implication or belief is that he was the fulfillment, then it implies that you believe the writers were accurate and reliable, yet you fail to explain why they also thought they were inspired of God. Is the part of the context where they state this directly to be BELIEVED AS WELL
Perhaps you could explain yet another delimma, you have now involved yourself in
Seeing that you havent even approached or touched the first query of mine (Are they inspired or not, atleast from your perspective), it is obvious your are falling behind rather quickly
2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
Tell me jar, who is making the above statement? Who is the ME in the passage?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 7:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 11:38 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 360 of 566 (597541)
12-22-2010 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Dr Adequate
12-21-2010 7:51 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
You're welcome. Now, it clearly doesn't describe Jesus, does it?
Of course it does. But only inspiration could or would let me know that, correct? If its not inspired, who cares what the writer was speaking about
Since you like context so much, tell me, when the writer claims inspiration, should we believe that as well?
Dawn Bertot
DA, were the writers in the OT and specifically in this passage inspired of God? were the writers in the NT, inspired of God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2010 7:51 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 11:55 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 362 of 566 (597553)
12-22-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by jar
12-22-2010 11:38 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
And all that has been answered time after time.
You havent even touched it. It is clear you have no intention of responding to the contradictions I have pointed out, not to mention the new ones I just posted
How would the writer know in advance Jar what would happen?
How do you know that Cyrus was the person he had in mind?
How could he know in advance the details of such events?
But it is NOT talking about Jesus.
By IT you mean the context correct? Why do you rely on the part of the context that supports you position, yet you reject the part of the context where the writer claims to have seen a vision of God or been told by God what to say.
Now Jar there are only two real possibilities. He was inspired or he actually believed he did these things
If he did not, then logically, nothing he said about the future or its events can be trusted and there is no way you could know he was NOT speaking about anything or a specific person
You simply have to many contradictions to begin with to make such bold assertions one way or the other
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 11:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:09 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 364 of 566 (597556)
12-22-2010 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by jar
12-22-2010 12:09 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Speaking about inspiration jar writes
No, most certainly not. The Bible tells us NOT to trust claims of inspiration and to test what has been said.
That has been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread.
So the writers were not inspired and you use for you conclusion on this that it is the Bible that tell us to warn against such false inspiration, correct?
Tell me Jar which writer warns us against such false claims. My bet it is one of the writers that you also reject that has also claimed miracles and inspiration
But anyway, tell which writer out of the Bible it is that you use to help us watch for false prophets
I dont know whether you are joking or it is that you really dont understand how to think critically
Does what you said above make sense to you?
Im sure youve done alot of study but I dont think you have thought these issues through critically
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:39 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 365 of 566 (597557)
12-22-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by jar
12-22-2010 12:09 PM


Re: How to test a prophets writings
No, most certainly not. The Bible tells us NOT to trust claims of inspiration and to test what has been said.
That has been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread.
Come on Dawn.
Please show where I do any of that?
Jar, your doing it by direct implication, which is as important as any point that has any historical content
No one that has any knowledge of critical thinking, history or scriptural content would take what you are saying as serious
Your using the writers of the OT which you deem as unreliable to demonstrate that Christ was not the fulfillment
Now you have even ventured to say that they were correct in thier predictions, while at the same time rejecting thier claims to inspiration
None of what you are attempting makes any logical sense. Yet you fail to show why these are not contradictions and keep repeating yourself that we should just trust the writes words
Does that make sense to you?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 367 of 566 (597562)
12-22-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by jar
12-22-2010 12:09 PM


Re: How to test a prophets writings
By context, I mean the writings, for example Micah. I have even actually read Micah, and even quoted all of Micah 5 for your benefit and the benefit of the readers.
If you like, we can go even further in the discussion of the history of the period.
There is even a whole thread on the topic. In fact there are several threads here going back almost a decade, and so far NO ONE has been able to show that Micah was talking about Jesus.
Jar thats the point. Without inspiration and your admitted statement that it is not Gods word and that the writers are unrelieable,
none of your CONCLUSIONS Jar are anymore believable than anyone elses. Yet you speak confidently that yours are the only ones and that they are the fulfillment of the prophets words, in Cyrus and the surrounding events
By your own assertions concerning the scriptures and the writers themself, you have no way of knowing whether the writer was accurate, even by his own words, even if we examine JUST the context itself.
The test is to look at what happened during the period when those that heard Micah's prophecy would have been alive.
Heres is where your contradiction strarts Jar. You want to rely on only parts of the prophets words for you conclusions
Now you have even admitted that the prophet got it right in Cyrus.
You cant eat you cake and hve it to Jar. If the writer WAS inspired as he claims, then not only was his prediction about Cyrus correct, but it would demonstrate that God was involved and the NT writers would let us know he was refering to Christ as well
To choose only portionso f the prophets words makes little or know sense
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:55 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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