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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(3)
Message 316 of 566 (597317)
12-20-2010 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Panda
12-20-2010 8:14 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Is cognitive dissonance forcing you to deny your lack of ability?
I expect that if you could acknowledge your failure at English you would have to question everything you think the bible says.
Still no argument from Panda. You really dont know anything about these topics or how to debate, do you?
Be honest now, tell us the truth or atleast present an argument
Prehaps you could help Jar out of his problem. Atleast make some sort of groaning noise at an attempt related to the topic
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Panda, posted 12-20-2010 8:14 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Panda, posted 12-21-2010 6:06 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 325 by frako, posted 12-21-2010 9:41 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 317 of 566 (597319)
12-20-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Panda
12-20-2010 8:14 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
This is close to being a sentence too.
A good try. D-
Thanks Mum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Panda, posted 12-20-2010 8:14 PM Panda has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 318 of 566 (597321)
12-20-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 8:19 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn, get serious.
Dawn, all of this was addressed in Message 287, Message 254, Message 226, Message 267 and Message 270 and Message 291.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
It really is that simple.
You made a claim, we can examine that claim.
jar writes:
Dawn Bertot writes:
He is attempting to demonstrate that the Christ mentioned in the NT, is not who and what the prophets were speaking about
And guess what. So far in EVERY case examined I have shown that to actually be the case. There is even a thread devoted just to that.
If YOU think there is an Old Testament prophecy that refers to Jesus, please post the chapter and verse in that thread so your claim can be questioned and challenged.
Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
Frankly Dawn, folk can read the posts in this thread and honestly, your arguments are as weak and pitiful as the god you try to market.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 8:19 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 11:35 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 401 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 319 of 566 (597322)
12-20-2010 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 7:50 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
He is attempting to demonstrate that the Christ mentioned in the NT, is not who and what the prophets were speaking about
Quite so: just as you might try to demonstrate that the chair you saw on Saturday was not the grufflepuff that I was speaking about.
This is easy to do. You would observe that it did not have purple wings nor play the trombone. Then you'd know that my prophecy did not apply to your chair.
At no point would you have to assume that I was in any way correct or accurate.
By direct implication or outright assertion he is assuming the prophets were correct or accurate in their statements, of and about the the things the prophecied
No, of course he isn't. Don't be silly.
Now if he is saying as you have indicated that they are not accurate, it would follow logically, he has no way of knowing whether Christ was not the fulfillment
Of course he can; just as you can say that I am not accurate and still know that nothing you saw on Saturday was the fulfillment of my prophecy about the grufflepuff.
Indeed, the two go hand in hand. You cannot point out that my prophecy was not fulfilled without also believing that I was inaccurate in making the prophecy.
Or at least a rational person couldn't. I do not wish to set arbitrary limits on your capacity for doublethink.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 7:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 320 of 566 (597347)
12-20-2010 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
12-20-2010 8:29 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn, get serious.
Dawn, all of this was addressed in Message 287, Message 254, Message 226, Message 267 and Message 270 and Message 291.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
It really is that simple.
Oh, I am quite serious and asserting that inspiration does not matter, when you have no reason to believe that those writers are reliable in the first place makes no logical sense.
Yours, is a fallacy of the worst order.
I have asked you a question and asked you to give an example numerous times now and you simply refuse to answer it
Here it is again. Give me an example of something the prophets said of a miraculous or non-miraculous nature, that you can trust and why you trust it
Heres the extention of that challenge.
Give me an example of something that one of the prophets said, that does not apply to Christ
This should be simple enough, correct?
You made a claim, we can examine that claim.
Unfortunately, you dont understand how evidence or the scriptures are understood, not to mention critical thinking
Frankly Dawn, folk can read the posts in this thread and honestly, your arguments are as weak and pitiful as the god you try to market.
Yeah, Ive heard all of your catchy phrases through the months
Now, just present the phrase from the prophet that is applicable to the argument, that you believe is reliable and that demonstrates that Christ was not the fulfillment
Why wont you do this?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 12-20-2010 8:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Coyote, posted 12-20-2010 11:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 322 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2010 11:56 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 324 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 9:31 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2223 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 321 of 566 (597348)
12-20-2010 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 11:35 PM


Evidence and critical thinking
Unfortunately, you dont understand how evidence or the scriptures are understood, not to mention critical thinking
Perhaps it is more that many of us do understand evidence and critical thinking, and as such have little to no trust for scriptures and other shamanistic writings.
The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence.
Robert A. Heinlein, Friday

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 401 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 322 of 566 (597349)
12-20-2010 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 11:35 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Give me an example of something that one of the prophets said, that does not apply to Christ
Micah 5:
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. [...] And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
---
The rest of your post appears to be your usual nonsensical ravings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3829 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 323 of 566 (597364)
12-21-2010 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 8:23 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn writes:
Still no argument from Panda. You really dont know anything about these topics or how to debate, do you?
Still no answer from Dawn.
Why should we believe your claims to be educated when you can't read or write?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 8:23 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 324 of 566 (597393)
12-21-2010 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 11:35 PM


More links to evidence so perhaps Dawn will get a clue.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Oh, I am quite serious and asserting that inspiration does not matter, when you have no reason to believe that those writers are reliable in the first place makes no logical sense.
Yours, is a fallacy of the worst order.
I have asked you a question and asked you to give an example numerous times now and you simply refuse to answer it
Here it is again. Give me an example of something the prophets said of a miraculous or non-miraculous nature, that you can trust and why you trust it
And it has been pointed out to you that we can read what they actually wrote. Note the bolded parts from the very message you are replying to. You have been answered.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
quote:
Dawn, all of this was addressed in Message 287, Message 254, Message 226, Message 267 and Message 270 and Message 291.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
It really is that simple.
You made a claim, we can examine that claim.
We can trust that what we read is actually what is written.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Heres the extention of that challenge.
Give me an example of something that one of the prophets said, that does not apply to Christ
This should be simple enough, correct?
And that too has been covered in this thread in Message 93 and in Message 226 and as has been pointed out to you there is even a whole thread devoted to the topic at Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? where even more examples are given.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Unfortunately, you dont understand how evidence or the scriptures are understood, not to mention critical thinking
Frankly Dawn, folk can read the posts in this thread and honestly, your arguments are as weak and pitiful as the god you try to market.
Unfortunately Dawn it appears that even though many have tried to explain to you what prophecy was and how it is tested, you still don't understand.
Prophecy was a godly dope slap. It was God telling a messenger "Go say this to my people". It is NOT something that would be hard to understand, it was meant to be understood easily by all that heard it. It was NOT meant for people living thousands or even hundreds of years in the future, it was meant for those actually hearing the prophet.
And the actual question related to the topic also still remains unanswered:
quote:
Why if I look and find that there is no unity of doctrine and theme in the Bible (which is pretty obvious to anyone that understands there is not even such a thing as "The Bible") is that not sufficient and supportable reason to throw away the god and religion you try to market?
If I find the Bible to be just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures, why is that not sufficient?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:29 PM jar has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 325 of 566 (597397)
12-21-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 8:23 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Lets try again
The bible contradicts itself on many occasions
the bible is wrong on lots of facts
No prophecies presented on this forum are actual prophecies and none have come to pass
So it is reasnoble to conclude that the Bible is not the word of god and it is in fact a book written by mere mortals trying to push their morality upon the mases and trying to explain what they do not understand
There is no miracle that has been tested by science and it could be called a miracle after that.
There has been no manifestation of god in recent history and it has not been objectively observed and recorded by an objective science mind.
We have fare better explanations for just about everything and those explanations rely on science facts and evidence. If you do not understand those explanations well then go and read a book about it do not go crying god did it.
We have no evidence, measurements or anything that would point to a god. If you think you have some think again or present it, and do not cry about it when it gets torn to pieces by the objective mind.
So why do you still cling to a imaginary friend you call god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 8:23 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 10:00 AM frako has not replied
 Message 332 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:44 PM frako has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 326 of 566 (597402)
12-21-2010 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by frako
12-21-2010 9:41 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
frako writes:
No prophecies presented on this forum are actual prophecies and none have come to pass
I wouldn't go that far.
If you reread what was posted over in Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? I think you will find that many of the prophecies listed are fulfilled, just that they were not prophecies about Jesus.
For example, the Isaiah 7 prophecy was fulfilled, only a little over a half century before Jesus was even born.
Prophecy was meant for the immediate audience; it was saying "If you do this, this is what will happen".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by frako, posted 12-21-2010 9:41 AM frako has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2814 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 327 of 566 (597416)
12-21-2010 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Dawn Bertot
12-20-2010 8:03 PM


Hi, Dawn.
Dawn Bertot writes:
The herkie Jerkies and the other claimed feelings are not mentioned as a part of the conversion experience.
I didn't mention "herkie jerkies" or feelings of any kind in my post, Dawn. In fact, I intentionally left out all mention of those things.
The only description I gave was "witness from the Holy Ghost."
Do you agree that a witness from the Holy Ghost is an integral part of conversion?
-----
Dawn Bertot writes:
Nowhere does the NT imply or state that you will feel something other than the knowledge and assurance, given his word, that you are now free from the bondage of sin.
Does this not count as a "witness from the Holy Ghost"?
Is this not part of the conversion experience?
Should I convert if I haven't felt this knowledge and assurance?
-----
Dawn Bertot writes:
Wrong. Thats like saying I shouldnt believe in God because I dont feel it (something other than normal sensation) against the clear evidence of his exsistence
IOW, the evidence of God and the evidence that the scriptures is the Word of God, that which supports it, gives me assurance that my life now has purpose above and beyond the grave
Then you do believe that the Holy Ghost has no role in conversion at all.
If that is the case, then it is also a valid reason to deconvert from any sect that believes the Holy Ghost does play a role in conversion.
Also, the validity of a decision to convert/deconvert is entirely based on an assessment of the empirical evidence for the truth of the religion in question. I argue that, regardless of which religion we're talking about, the evidence is wholly lacking, and that deconversion is thus perfectly valid.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2010 8:03 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 11:18 AM Blue Jay has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 328 of 566 (597442)
12-21-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Dr Adequate
12-20-2010 11:56 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Micah 5 "Marshal your troops, O city of troops,a
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel’s ruler
on the cheek with a rod.
2But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clansb of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose originsc are from of old,
from ancient times.d
3Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.
4He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the Lord,
in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
5And he will be their peace.
Deliverance and Destruction
When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men. "
Wow it is so cool that you chose this prophecy. This one nails not only the fact that Christ is the only fulfilment, but as the NT teaches, he would be one whos goings out and comings in are from everlasting
Christ is God.
Its not only a dual passage about those current events, but it establishes in both instances that it is God THAT IS the deliverer, WHETHER THEN OR NOW
Absolutely amazing. Its all about God whether then, at the time of the Christ, or now
Once you understand the nature and purpose of scripture, you will understand that is and always will be just about God
the theme never changed between the OlT and the New. God as deliever, whether in a physical way or a spiritual one
I cant thank you enough for providing that one
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2010 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Coragyps, posted 12-21-2010 6:41 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 347 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-21-2010 7:51 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 329 of 566 (597445)
12-21-2010 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by jar
12-21-2010 9:31 AM


Re: More links to evidence so perhaps Dawn will get a clue.
What we are testing is whether or not what they wrote applies to Jesus. It is irrelevant whether what they wrote is reliable or accurate; it is what they wrote. We can test what they wrote to see if what they wrote refers to Jesus.
That is palpably, the most ignorant statement I have ever seen or read
"it does not matter whether they were reliable or accurate"
why dont you add "believable"
Give me a minute, I cant stop laughing
No one in any area of investigation, in any science would take such an approach
yet Jar proudly and confidently claims as much
Your a hoot man
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 9:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by jar, posted 12-21-2010 6:42 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 354 by subbie, posted 12-22-2010 1:38 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 851 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 330 of 566 (597448)
12-21-2010 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 6:17 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
"When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men."
This one nails not only the fact that Christ is the only fulfilment....
How does it do that, DB? Are Romans really Assyrians? Does the New Testament talk about "seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men?"
Or are "Assyrians" modern-day Iranians, and you are citing as "fulfilled prophecy" some Armageddon bullshit that hasn't happened?

"God is Santa Claus for adults."
- Mad Kallie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 6:17 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 7:02 PM Coragyps has replied

  
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