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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 361 of 566 (597550)
12-22-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 11:41 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Since you like context so much, tell me, when the writer claims inspiration, should we believe that as well?
No, most certainly not. The Bible tells us NOT to trust claims of inspiration and to test what has been said.
That has been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 11:41 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 362 of 566 (597553)
12-22-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by jar
12-22-2010 11:38 AM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
And all that has been answered time after time.
You havent even touched it. It is clear you have no intention of responding to the contradictions I have pointed out, not to mention the new ones I just posted
How would the writer know in advance Jar what would happen?
How do you know that Cyrus was the person he had in mind?
How could he know in advance the details of such events?
But it is NOT talking about Jesus.
By IT you mean the context correct? Why do you rely on the part of the context that supports you position, yet you reject the part of the context where the writer claims to have seen a vision of God or been told by God what to say.
Now Jar there are only two real possibilities. He was inspired or he actually believed he did these things
If he did not, then logically, nothing he said about the future or its events can be trusted and there is no way you could know he was NOT speaking about anything or a specific person
You simply have to many contradictions to begin with to make such bold assertions one way or the other
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 11:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:09 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 363 of 566 (597554)
12-22-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 11:59 AM


How to test a prophets writings
Dawn Bertot writes:
By IT you mean the context correct? Why do you rely on the part of the context that supports you position, yet you reject the part of the context where the writer claims to have seen a vision of God or been told by God what to say.
Come on Dawn.
Please show where I do any of that?
By context, I mean the writings, for example Micah. I have even actually read Micah, and even quoted all of Micah 5 for your benefit and the benefit of the readers.
If you like, we can go even further in the discussion of the history of the period.
Oh wait, many of us already have. There is even a whole thread on the topic. In fact there are several threads here going back almost a decade, and so far NO ONE has been able to show that Micah was talking about Jesus.
The test is to look at what happened during the period when those that heard Micah's prophecy would have been alive.
Did what happen fulfill the prophecy?
Yup, and over 500 years before Jesus was even born.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 11:59 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:27 PM jar has replied
 Message 365 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:35 PM jar has replied
 Message 367 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:50 PM jar has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 364 of 566 (597556)
12-22-2010 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by jar
12-22-2010 12:09 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Speaking about inspiration jar writes
No, most certainly not. The Bible tells us NOT to trust claims of inspiration and to test what has been said.
That has been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread.
So the writers were not inspired and you use for you conclusion on this that it is the Bible that tell us to warn against such false inspiration, correct?
Tell me Jar which writer warns us against such false claims. My bet it is one of the writers that you also reject that has also claimed miracles and inspiration
But anyway, tell which writer out of the Bible it is that you use to help us watch for false prophets
I dont know whether you are joking or it is that you really dont understand how to think critically
Does what you said above make sense to you?
Im sure youve done alot of study but I dont think you have thought these issues through critically
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:39 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 365 of 566 (597557)
12-22-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by jar
12-22-2010 12:09 PM


Re: How to test a prophets writings
No, most certainly not. The Bible tells us NOT to trust claims of inspiration and to test what has been said.
That has been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread.
Come on Dawn.
Please show where I do any of that?
Jar, your doing it by direct implication, which is as important as any point that has any historical content
No one that has any knowledge of critical thinking, history or scriptural content would take what you are saying as serious
Your using the writers of the OT which you deem as unreliable to demonstrate that Christ was not the fulfillment
Now you have even ventured to say that they were correct in thier predictions, while at the same time rejecting thier claims to inspiration
None of what you are attempting makes any logical sense. Yet you fail to show why these are not contradictions and keep repeating yourself that we should just trust the writes words
Does that make sense to you?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 366 of 566 (597558)
12-22-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 12:27 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Speaking about inspiration jar writes
jar writes:
No, most certainly not. The Bible tells us NOT to trust claims of inspiration and to test what has been said.
That has been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread.
So the writers were not inspired and you use for you conclusion on this that it is the Bible that tell us to warn against such false inspiration, correct?
Tell me Jar which writer warns us against such false claims. My bet it is one of the writers that you also reject that has also claimed miracles and inspiration
But anyway, tell which writer out of the Bible it is that you use to help us watch for false prophets
I dont know whether you are joking or it is that you really dont understand how to think critically
Does what you said above make sense to you?
Im sure youve done alot of study but I dont think you have thought these issues through critically
Dawn Bertot
No Dawn, you again misrepresent what I have said.
I said that the Bible tells us not to trust claims pf prophecy but rather to test the content.
Read the very message that you are replying to.
quote:
Come on Dawn.
Please show where I do any of that?
By context, I mean the writings, for example Micah. I have even actually read Micah, and even quoted all of Micah 5 for your benefit and the benefit of the readers.
If you like, we can go even further in the discussion of the history of the period.
Oh wait, many of us already have. There is even a whole thread on the topic. In fact there are several threads here going back almost a decade, and so far NO ONE has been able to show that Micah was talking about Jesus.
The test is to look at what happened during the period when those that heard Micah's prophecy would have been alive.
Did what happen fulfill the prophecy?
Yup, and over 500 years before Jesus was even born.

We can tell that what Micah said was inspired by God because it all came true over 500 years before Jesus was even born.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:27 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:53 PM jar has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 367 of 566 (597562)
12-22-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by jar
12-22-2010 12:09 PM


Re: How to test a prophets writings
By context, I mean the writings, for example Micah. I have even actually read Micah, and even quoted all of Micah 5 for your benefit and the benefit of the readers.
If you like, we can go even further in the discussion of the history of the period.
There is even a whole thread on the topic. In fact there are several threads here going back almost a decade, and so far NO ONE has been able to show that Micah was talking about Jesus.
Jar thats the point. Without inspiration and your admitted statement that it is not Gods word and that the writers are unrelieable,
none of your CONCLUSIONS Jar are anymore believable than anyone elses. Yet you speak confidently that yours are the only ones and that they are the fulfillment of the prophets words, in Cyrus and the surrounding events
By your own assertions concerning the scriptures and the writers themself, you have no way of knowing whether the writer was accurate, even by his own words, even if we examine JUST the context itself.
The test is to look at what happened during the period when those that heard Micah's prophecy would have been alive.
Heres is where your contradiction strarts Jar. You want to rely on only parts of the prophets words for you conclusions
Now you have even admitted that the prophet got it right in Cyrus.
You cant eat you cake and hve it to Jar. If the writer WAS inspired as he claims, then not only was his prediction about Cyrus correct, but it would demonstrate that God was involved and the NT writers would let us know he was refering to Christ as well
To choose only portionso f the prophets words makes little or know sense
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:55 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 368 of 566 (597563)
12-22-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 12:35 PM


Re: How to test a prophets writings
What you post is just word salad, utter nonsense and misrepresentation.
See the post above.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:35 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 369 of 566 (597564)
12-22-2010 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by jar
12-22-2010 12:39 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
We can tell that what Micah said was inspired by God because it all came true over 500 years before Jesus was even born.
Wait a minute, wait a minute, hold the presses. Are you now claiming inspiration of and by God for Micah, or am I misunderstanding what I clearly see?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:59 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 370 of 566 (597565)
12-22-2010 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 12:50 PM


Re: How to test a prophets writings
Dawn Bertot writes:
You cant eat you cake and hve it to Jar. If the writer WAS inspired as he claims, then not only was his prediction about Cyrus correct, but it would demonstrate that God was involved and the NT writers would let us know he was refering to Christ as well
Guess what Dawn, we test the writings of the New Testament folk the same way. BUT, when they make a claim that an earlier prophet was talking about Jesus, and when we look and see that what that prophet said had already come to pass over 500 years before Jesus was born, then we can be pretty sure that that they are saying is not inspired prophecy but only quote mining and marketing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 371 of 566 (597566)
12-22-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 12:53 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Wait a minute, wait a minute, hold the presses. Are you now claiming inspiration of and by God for Micah, or am I misunderstanding what I clearly see?
Dawn Bertot
I have never said otherwise. I said that what Micah said did not refer to Jesus. That claim (that it was referring to Jesus) was simply quote mining and marketing by the authors of the New Testament.
What Micah and Isaiah and Daniel and Zechariah said was likely inspired by God and also fulfilled over 500 years before Jesus was born.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 12:53 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 1:12 PM jar has not replied
 Message 375 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2010 10:12 AM jar has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 372 of 566 (597570)
12-22-2010 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by jar
12-22-2010 12:59 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
I have never said otherwise. I said that what Micah said did not refer to Jesus. That claim (that it was referring to Jesus) was simply quote mining and marketing by the authors of the New Testament.
What Micah and Isaiah and Daniel and Zechariah said was likely inspired by God and also fulfilled over 500 years before Jesus was born.
Great, I have got to take care of some RW things, but will return, thanks Dawn

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:59 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by arachnophilia, posted 12-22-2010 5:52 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1421 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 373 of 566 (597607)
12-22-2010 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Dawn Bertot
12-22-2010 1:12 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
great jar, you broke him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-22-2010 1:12 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 374 of 566 (597609)
12-22-2010 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Dawn Bertot
12-21-2010 7:37 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
This would be true, if I wrote the books of the NT, I was inspired by God to explain the fulfillment of the words he gave the prophets
Either the prophecies were fulfilled or they weren't, claims of inspiration aside. If you cant twist and reword prophecies to fit any outcome then they aren't prophecies. If someone claims inspiration and then twist and reword prophecies to fit any and all outcomes then they are not prophecies.
Its not necessary for every word or idea to be explained in full for the NT writes to explain Gods overall plan
Unless you don't believe in God, then it is nothing more than humans inventing a plan for humanity based on commands from a non-existent God. IOW, you have to believe it is true before you can accept it as true.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-21-2010 7:37 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2010 10:20 AM Taq has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 375 of 566 (597682)
12-23-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by jar
12-22-2010 12:59 PM


Re: How to test Dawn Bertot's writings.
What Micah and Isaiah and Daniel and Zechariah said was likely inspired by God and also fulfilled over 500 years before Jesus was born.
As I proceed with extreme caution here and given the fact that you have atleast indirectly admitted the existence of God and inspiration of those prophets, what would prevent the writers of the NT having the same inspiration, that was characteristic of the OT prophets, especially Christ?
As you have indicated the passage says nothing about Jesus directly, but then it also does not mention Cyrus by name.
If indeed the writers of the NT were inspired as well, what would prevent God from giving additional and expanded information about his overall plan in the lines of the OT prophets and explained by the NT prophets?
In the OT there were, priests, judges and kings. IOWs God does things differently as times passes, for the benigfit of man
Hebrews one, states that God in times and DIFFERENT WAYD has spoken the fathers by the prophets, but in these last days has spoken to us by his son Jesus Christ
In other words, do you have a reason for believing that the NT writers were any less inspired, than that which you attribute to the OT prophets?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 12-22-2010 12:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by jar, posted 12-23-2010 10:36 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 379 by arachnophilia, posted 12-23-2010 9:42 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
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