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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 526 of 566 (598837)
01-03-2011 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by Dawn Bertot
01-02-2011 11:25 PM


Re: highly illogical
DrJones* writes:
If I said "The sky is green" and you then told someone else "DrJones said the sky was purple", you would be misrepresenting me, even though what I said was not true.
Dawn Bertot writes:
How do I know you said that in the first place. thats the nature of unreliable, correct?
because it's right there. that's the great thing about writing stuff down. we can go and read it later. it would be one thing if DrJones had communicated in a transient way, like vocally, that "the sky is green", but he did not. he wrote it down. and i know you (could have easily) read it, because you quoted it.
all i have to do then is compare what you wrote to what he wrote.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-02-2011 11:25 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 527 of 566 (598838)
01-03-2011 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by ICANT
01-03-2011 1:12 AM


Re: other scriptures
dwise1 writes:
Yes, but just how is that debate to be conducted? Honestly and truthfully? Or deceptively and with guile?
ICANT writes:
I been here over 3 years and have seen no such debate.
it's not too late for you to start now, ICANT.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 1:12 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 528 of 566 (598840)
01-03-2011 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 521 by DrJones*
01-02-2011 11:38 PM


Re: highly illogical
DrJones* writes:
What does that matter? Even if you heard fifth hand that I said "the sky is green" you'd still be misrepresenting what I allegedly said if you then in turn claimed "DrJones said the sky was purple".
sure. but that actually is not what happened here. rather, we have a written source, quoted in another written source. we actually have both sources easily at hand. all we have to do is read and compare. there is no allegedly here -- we have the exact source that matthew quoted.
dawn has somehow confused reading and believing every word.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.
Edited by arachnophilia, : teh grammorz.

אָרַח

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5973
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 529 of 566 (598849)
01-03-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by Dawn Bertot
01-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: other scriptures
As i have tried to explain to you before, to which you do not understand, this thread is about the specific arguments that could be brought forward for deconversion.
Not a list of WHO has deconverted and HOW many in droves and the such like that you keep presenting
Then read the testimonials. Duh?
You even "participated" in the Deconversion experiences topic here. Why don't you go back and this time actually read the deconversion stories. You should also go to an ex-Christian site or forum, such as http://www.ex-christian.net/, which has many testimonials and discussions of deconversion. The "horse's mouth", duh?
In reading such stories over the years, an interesting pattern presents itself. Actually, that pattern becomes immediately apparent, glaringly obvious. Some deconverts left Roman Catholicism and a variety of mainstream churches, but the vast majority of deconverts left some form of fundamentalist, evangelical, and/or conservative Christianity. Furthermore, the stories of those leaving fundamentalism were the more extreme and gut-wrenching stories.
Dawn, it cannot be any coincidence that it's your own type of Christian theology that is hemorrhaging members. Something has to be causing it, something peculiar to that theology that they are fleeing. The subtext of your posts is that the solution to deconversion is your own type of indoctrination, but that cannot be true because those ex-fundamentalist deconverts had themselves received that exact same indoctrination.
Deny reality all you want. Hide your head deeper and deeper in the sand. Invoke more and more magical "explanations". That won't change reality one whit.
Playing the Black Knight ("It's only a scratch!") is only funny when it's not actually happening.
Edited by dwise1, : "then" had dropped an "n"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-02-2011 4:31 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 531 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 5:28 PM dwise1 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 530 of 566 (598867)
01-03-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by ICANT
01-03-2011 1:12 AM


I tried in one thread but with over 400 posts no one presented any refutation to the OP. In fact no one even tried.
Bullshit!
All you could do was close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 1:12 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 166 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 531 of 566 (598912)
01-03-2011 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by dwise1
01-03-2011 10:22 AM


Re: other scriptures
Dawn, it cannot be any coincidence that it's your own type of Christian theology that is hemorrhaging members. Something has to be causing it, something peculiar to that theology that they are fleeing. The subtext of your posts is that the solution to deconversion is your own type of indoctrination, but that cannot be true because those ex-fundamentalist deconverts had themselves received that exact same indoctrination.
Deny reality all you want. Hide your head deeper and deeper in the sand. Invoke more and more magical "explanations". That won't change reality one whit.
As i told you before , association with Christianity is not the same as being rooted and grounded in its tenets
Most of those people dont have firm foundation to support what little they believe
Ones like Jaywill, Icant, Buzz and myself clearly have firm foundation
I might remind you again that it is you the skeptic and Atheist that is in the low percentage as far as beliefs go.
What happened Dewise after thounsands of years, you are still in the single digit representation
Oh well such is life
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by dwise1, posted 01-03-2011 10:22 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by bluescat48, posted 01-03-2011 5:53 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 533 by jar, posted 01-03-2011 5:59 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 534 by Panda, posted 01-03-2011 6:05 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 539 by dwise1, posted 01-03-2011 8:24 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4273 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 532 of 566 (598914)
01-03-2011 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Dawn Bertot
01-03-2011 5:28 PM


Re: other scriptures
Ones like Jaywill, Icant, Buzz and myself clearly have firm foundation
Ok, I'll bite. What is this "firm foundation?"
As a person who was indoctrinated into Christianity stating at age 5,
but later left because I could find no foundation even when the initial class stared off with "These are the absolute truths, you cannot question them."

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 5:28 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 7:39 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 533 of 566 (598916)
01-03-2011 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Dawn Bertot
01-03-2011 5:28 PM


on foundations
Dawn Bertot writes:
Most of those people dont have firm foundation to support what little they believe
And what difference does that make?
Dawn Bertot writes:
I might remind you again that it is you the skeptic and Atheist that is in the low percentage as far as beliefs go.
And I am a Christian, yet so far you have failed to show me any reason I should not throw away all the beliefs you try to market.
Edited by jar, : lost an 'a'

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 5:28 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3796 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 534 of 566 (598917)
01-03-2011 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Dawn Bertot
01-03-2011 5:28 PM


Re: other scriptures
Dawn writes:
I might remind you again that it is you the skeptic and Atheist that is in the low percentage as far as beliefs go.
What happened Dewise after thounsands of years, you are still in the single digit representation
Appeal to the masses is a fallacious argument.
But this has already been pointed out to you.
Since you continue to use this false logic (despite knowing otherwise) this must mean that you are a dishonest debater.
I am sure that your god is proud of your deceit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 5:28 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 166 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 535 of 566 (598922)
01-03-2011 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by bluescat48
01-03-2011 5:53 PM


Re: other scriptures
Ok, I'll bite. What is this "firm foundation?"
As a person who was indoctrinated into Christianity stating at age 5,
but later left because I could find no foundation even when the initial class stared off with "These are the absolute truths, you cannot question them."
learning and knowing the evidence behind the scriptures, knowing what the scriptures actually teach and the ability to defend those truths is of primary importance in establishing a firm foundation
As you have seen from myself and the otherts here there is much more to Christianity and its defense, than those that have abandoned the faith, so quickly
I dont know who it was that told you not to question anything but they were mistaken.
Anywho that it
Dawn

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by bluescat48, posted 01-03-2011 5:53 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by arachnophilia, posted 01-03-2011 7:54 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 541 by bluescat48, posted 01-04-2011 11:52 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 536 of 566 (598923)
01-03-2011 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by Dawn Bertot
01-03-2011 7:39 PM


Re: other scriptures
Dawn Bertot writes:
learning and knowing the evidence behind the scriptures, knowing what the scriptures actually teach and the ability to defend those truths
alright. show of hands. who thinks this actually describes dawn?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 7:39 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 166 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 537 of 566 (598924)
01-03-2011 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by arachnophilia
01-03-2011 1:15 AM


Re: misrepresentation
my position is that we must pay attention to what is actually written, and not that we must actually believe it. they two do not go hand in hand,
this of course would work in any other situation, excluding claims of inspiration and the miraculous. When someone claims this then attaches it to thier claims and prophecies, it immediately calls into question most of anything else they have to say
as i keep trying to explain to you. i do not know why you cannot grasp this concept. the accuracy of the source is irrelevant to concerns about how someone represents it.
i know you honestly belief that and in some instances it may be true, not when it comes to claims of the miraculous and put my reputation on the line, if I were to make claims in that connection
On the other hand looking straight at the text. When the author claims inspiration from God, and the prophecy is said to have COME from God. it immediatley bolsters the fact that since God is involved in the prophecy it can and does have an expanded meaning
Without it the prophecy is really worthless. Because we kn0ow mewn and men alone cannot predict the future
that includes me, my points do not have to be correct for your misrepresentation of them to be incorrect. at this point, i am forced to believe that you are doing this on purpose; that you are intentionally intellectually dishonest.
I am relatively sure you made these comments, but you have made no prophecies or claims to inspiration from God about your arguments.
So there is different form of check and balance that is necessary
The Bible and Isa makes these claims and they are either true or false
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by arachnophilia, posted 01-03-2011 1:15 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by Panda, posted 01-03-2011 8:22 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 540 by jar, posted 01-04-2011 11:50 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 544 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2011 4:23 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3796 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 538 of 566 (598925)
01-03-2011 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by Dawn Bertot
01-03-2011 8:06 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Why did you only address half of the points raised by arachnophilia?
Is it because you debate dishonestly; ignoring any information that contradicts your statements?
Is it because you have trouble reading English?
There must be a reason.
Why do you intentionally ignore so much of what arachnophilia posts?
It is so frequent in your replies that it can only be a mental disorder or dishonesty.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 8:06 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-04-2011 4:30 PM Panda has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5973
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 539 of 566 (598926)
01-03-2011 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Dawn Bertot
01-03-2011 5:28 PM


Re: other scriptures
As i told you before , association with Christianity is not the same as being rooted and grounded in its tenets
Dawn, please open your eyes. We're talking about the children raised in fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative Christian churches. Attending Christian schools throughout their childhoods. Or home-schooled. Going to "Jesus Camps" every summer. Getting thoroughly indoctrinated every day of their lives. That is no mere "association" with Chrisitian. That's drowning in it! And the painful process of deconversion that they describe proves it!
Dawn, they were as "associated with Christianity" as you.
Or are you saying that your Christian churches -- not the mainstream ones, but rather the "True Christian" fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative ones -- and their schools are failing utterly? Remember, 80% of the kids raised and thoroughly indoctrinated as fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative Christians will deconvert, most of them leaving Christianity altogether. That is 4 out of 5, which is a helluva lot. That's not just most of them; that pretty near all of them.
So which is it, Dawn? What is causing these thoroughly indoctrinated (not just merely "associated") kids to deconvert in such enormous numbers? Kids thoroughly indoctrinated in theologies virtually identical to your own. Is it something peculiar to your type of theology? Or are your type of churches and Christian schools and youth programs complete failures? Or is it both?
You've tried to offer the "solution" of including design in science classes. Well, that is what those kids are raised on in the Christian schools. Why, they even throw in massive amounts of "creation science" as well. Their mass deconversion is convincing evidence that your "solution" doesn't work.
I might remind you again that it is you the skeptic and Atheist that is in the low percentage as far as beliefs go.
What happened Dewise after thounsands of years, you are still in the single digit representation
Considering that religious liberty was virtually non-existent prior to the Enlightenment (18th Century, when our nation was formed) and harsh religious laws (including death for deconverting from Catholicism) and persecution of any form of religious dissident prevailed in pre-Enlightenment Europe, I don't see where you get that "thousands of years" from.
But our numbers are growing, Dawn, thanks to you and other "true Christians". Your children are fleeing your theology and joining us, in droves. And you're too frightened for your own faith (your defense mechanisms are a large part of your reason for denying reality with such determination) to even care, writing off 80% of your next generation as slackard hang-abouts.
Thank you for your generous contributions to the growth and spread of atheism, Dawn. Do please continue to donate as generously as you have in the past.
Edited by dwise1, : added short historical note

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 5:28 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34058
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 540 of 566 (598950)
01-04-2011 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by Dawn Bertot
01-03-2011 8:06 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Dawn Bertot writes:
Without it the prophecy is really worthless. Because we kn0ow mewn and men alone cannot predict the future
HUH?
Of course men can predict the future.
BUT, Biblical Prophecy is not about predicting the future. It is a Godly dope-slap, God telling man that if they continue a certain behavior this is what God will do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-03-2011 8:06 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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