Faith healing:proof of god, or placebo effect?

HI, WSW24.The placebo effect demonstrates the powerful connection between the mind and the body.A recent study, reported in the NY Times, showed that patients experience a powerful placebo effect, even when they are told the pill is an inert placebo, when they are told that placebos can have a positive effect.Trying to nail down a claimed case of faith healing is extremely difficult. If prayer healing were authentic, the media would be flooded with stories of the lame walking and the near-dead rising. Instead, as you noted, the reports are always tenuous, anecdotal and passed on by a friend of a friend.Since it is a test of faith, all failures can be explained away. Since amazing recoveries, including spontaneous remissions of cancers, are well documented, the faith healers will occasionally be able to claim success. In addition, the placebo effect of a faith healing ritual no doubt prompts improvement in some folks. I'm sure atheists also sometimes experience spontaneous recoveries.Attempting to refute prayer healing is, in essence, trying to prove a negative. While you can't do that, you can rationally discuss the lack of positive evidence and the confounding evidence.You can lead an evangelical to reason, but you can't make them think. Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

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I know there's a balance, I see it when I swing past.
-J. Mellencamp

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Real things always push back.
-William James

I hadn't thought of that. Another possibility occurs to me.Physicians describe a "Lazarus syndrome"--patients on the verge of dying suddenly rally and improve. I have experienced this. Sometimes there are multiple Lazarus events before the patient succumbs to illness or injury.The technical definition describes autoresuscitation after failed cardiopulmonary resuscitation, but in practice the term is used more widely, as described above.Most of us really, really don't want to die. Most of us don't know just how badly we don't want to die until we are confronted with death's proximity.It seems reasonable to me that faith healers, often called in when the patient is nearly gone, would take credit for a Lazarus event. They might even trigger the Lazarus response by making it apparent to the patient that death is near.

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Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare

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Real things always push back.
-William James

At least someone would be kissing your ass goodbye.

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Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare

​

Real things always push back.
-William James

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Hey there Mr. Space Guy--
How you make that thing fly?

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--Hell, I'd Go, Dan Hicks and His Hot Licks

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I don't think the psychological impact of a faith healing or an intense will to live is going to reconnect a severed spine or regrow a limb, OK? You can let that poor horse move on to the other side.I do believe that the mind's impact on the body can have significant impacts on health and healing. Is that what you are denying? I'd have thought that the placebo effect and the phenomena of psychosomatic illness would already suggest otherwise.I do understand that you want more than just data showing an improvement in a patient's subjective evaluation of symptoms.To start, I'll cite some studies where optimism retards the progression of organic disease. I apologize for lacking access to the journals online.

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Mental Health Problems and Mind-Body Wellness - References
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Matthews KA, et al. (2004). Optimistic attitudes protect against progression of carotid atherosclerosis in healthy middle-aged women. Psychosomatic Medicine, 66(5): 640-644.

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Scheier MF, et al. (1999). Optimism and rehospitalization after coronary artery bypass surgery. Archives of Internal Medicine. 159(8): 829-835.

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An article at WebMD summarizes the results of the second study:

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For example, optimistic coronary bypass patients generally recover more quickly and have fewer complications after surgery than do patients who are less hopeful.

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After several hours of searching, I find that few studies have been conducted on the issue. The difficulty of doing any kind of double-blind study is apparent, and the inability of physicians actively to control the patient's attitude, perhaps, makes the subject of limited clinical interest.However, a study of lung cancer patients in Australia yielded negative results on a correlation between positive attitudes and outcomes.Still, it was a small study (179 patients), and addressed a disease with nearly 100% mortality at five years out: 8 patients were still living, and their attitude rating showed no correlation with their survival. It seems odd to me to do such a study when the nearly 100% mortality leaves little room for a patient mind-body effect. Perhaps we can just paint you wrong. Why, yes, we have evidence of the power of the mind to accelerate bone fracture healing:

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A fascinating study (Ginandes & Rosenthal 1999) demonstrated the benefit of hypnosis in bone healing. In a group of people with fractures they showed a significant increase in speed of both anatomical and functional fracture healing over a control group with similar injuries.

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The superior outcome for non-depressed patients of all kinds is so well documented I'm not going to offer citations: I'm sure your own research into the matter has already discovered them.Finally, I'll add just a few general observations.We know that the conscious mind can deliberately raise or lower blood pressure, increase blood flow to particular areas, raise or lower body temperature, and, as noted above, accelerate healing of fractures and retard the progression of organic disease. Can the mind have an impact on kidney function? I dunno, I weighed your flippancy and didn't look for any data on that one.But I'd say that the ability to influence general metabolism and blood flow to particular regions of the body makes it possible.It's more than fine to be skeptical; it's essential. It's also lots of fun to express your skepticism with dismissive humor--I know, because I do that, too. It's a shame you didn't look for or cite any evidence one way or the other, though--and I thought you like2know! Mockery is more tasty with a garnish of information.Isn't dismissing a hypothesis for which there is, indeed, some evidence, merely a biased denial?

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Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare

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Real things always push back.
-William James

Hey guys.I've seen sick at home since Xmas week. My wife is at an artists' colony until mid January, and it's me, the kittens and antibiotics against the world till then.I'm headed into the hospital tomorrow morning by ambulance--woo-hoo. Definitely can't drive.Hopefully, they'll have a proposed surgical solution, fast. They'll probably keep me at least a little while (days), so I'm not sure when I'll have net access again.My will to live ain't enough, here: I have a long meandering fistular track (tunneling tiny bacterial focks), an enormous abscess in my, erm, left upper leg and, apparently, communication between somewhere in my intestines (probably lower colon) and bladder, since my urine is now dark tea brown and foul. Also, my shingles are flaring.Plenty of narcotics, so I won't stay long. My attitude is Mat Hatter good.Everybody pile up where you were, Sibyl, Spooky and Grace, and purr me back to sleep.

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Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare

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Real things always push back.
-William James