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Author Topic:   Evil Muslim conspiracy...
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 181 of 189 (629038)
08-15-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by jar
08-14-2011 8:42 AM


Re: Public Relations
Were I a parent of one of those killed, I would be enraged at the "enemy" and vow to continue the war! Were I simply a U.S. citizen observing the conflict, perhaps I would think about how to stop it or perhaps I would want to continue it.

It is a good question ...

I am often curious how the average Muslim on the street in Pakistan, Iran, or Afghanistan views the United States. Despite our flaws, are we viewed more positively than negatively? Would their opinion change if they had relatives living over here?

Would our opinion of "them" change if our sister, brother, or best friend lived in Pakistan amongst them?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 08-14-2011 8:42 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 182 of 189 (629203)
08-16-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Thugpreacha
08-15-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Public Relations
Phat, here is from a previous post I replied to you:

quote:
from a declassified Eisenhower Administration memo:
“President Eisenhower, in an internal discussion, observed to his staff, and I'm quoting now, "There's a campaign of hatred against us in the Middle East, not by governments, but by the people." The National Security Council discussed that question and said, "Yes, and the reason is, there's a perception in that region that the United States supports status quo governments, which prevent democracy and development and that we do it because of our interests in Middle East oil. Furthermore, it's difficult to counter that perception because it's correct."[59]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-15-2011 10:26 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2766 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 183 of 189 (629343)
08-17-2011 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
01-11-2011 3:14 PM


Re: Name the country ...
Hello Jar,

Name the Muslim Nation that invaded a Christian Nation?

These Christian nations were invaded by Islamic nations -

Syria 637
Jordan, Lebanon and Palestine 630 AD
Armenia and Egypt 639
North Africa, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco 652-665 AD
Spain 711 AD
Southern France 732 AD – Checked at the Battle of Tours
Sicily 850 AD
Southern Italy 827 AD
Turkish borders 900 AD
Armenia and Georgia 1050 AD
Central Turkey 1070 AD
Greece 1300 AD
Bulgaria, Serbia and the Balkans 1400 AD
Constantinople Siege 717-718 Fall to Turks 1453 AD
Of all the churches mentioned in the New Testament, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, and Alexandria, only a single one, Rome, escaped Muslim domination.

Sources
http://www.raptureready.com/time/rap31l.html
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/...lism/notes/islamchron.html
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/crusades_all_about.htm
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Crusades.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

There was a fair bit of debate in the first half of this thread about the frequency of violent acts amongst Islamic people. There were many comments that discussed the fact that there are something in the order of a billion muslims worldwide (I have not checked this figure, it was a number supplied in one of the posts). I agree with the statement that few of the total number of muslims commit extreme violent acts. I would say that the percentage of people stating that they are acting for religious reasons who are threatening or performing violent acts is much higher in Islam than other faiths. What is the percentage of Christians of their total who are involved in threatening street marches or planning terror attacks? How about Bhuddists? Or the Sikhs, I dont often hear of too many international Sikh terror organisations. I dont think I have ever heard of a street protest where Confucians or Toaists are threatening to kill anyone because they are upset over something. Do you think that it would ever be possible for any Jainist to blow up a diplomatic building or embassy because they are upset by something that has occured in another country. Or how about athiests, when was the last street march of placard waiving athiests screaming for revenge? Are there any athiests terror cells?

My point is that while the majority of Islamic people are not violent or aggressive, the percentage of violence is much higher than in all other faiths.

The best group to deal with this, as the original post shows, is the Muslims themselves. It is the average Islamic man or woman who is most negatively effected by Islamic violence.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-11-2011 3:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 08-17-2011 8:26 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 184 of 189 (629365)
08-17-2011 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Butterflytyrant
08-17-2011 3:35 AM


Re: Name the country ...
So you are looking at today's Muslims?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-17-2011 3:35 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-17-2011 8:38 AM jar has responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2766 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 185 of 189 (629366)
08-17-2011 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
08-17-2011 8:26 AM


Re: Name the country ...
The first part, the places invaded, no.

Thats all a fair while ago. It is a large span of dates though.

The last section was regarding todays Muslims.

I do believe that the people most affected by Islamic violence are the large number of non violent Muslims.

I also believe that the Islamic people would be the most effective at dealing with the extremist fringe. The article in the OP is a good exmple of this.

I wish there was more of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 08-17-2011 8:26 AM jar has responded

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 Message 186 by jar, posted 08-17-2011 8:45 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 186 of 189 (629367)
08-17-2011 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Butterflytyrant
08-17-2011 8:38 AM


Re: Name the country ...
I noticed that your dates stopped around 1400.

So in recent history, what Muslim nation has invaded a Christian nation?

Have any Christian nations invaded Muslim nations?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-17-2011 8:38 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-17-2011 9:59 AM jar has responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2766 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 187 of 189 (629375)
08-17-2011 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
08-17-2011 8:45 AM


Re: Name the country ...
I was answering the question asked.

Name the Muslim Nation that invaded a Christian Nation?

You asked if any Christian nations had been invaded by Islamic nations.

That was all.

There was no specification of any time period in the question.

I only researched until I had a decent bunch of dates and could confirm them. The dates do span a period of 800 years so it is not insignificant. The Islamic World largely went into decline around 1300. The Mongul invasions kept them pretty busy.

I am aware of what you are getting at though.

East Timor (Catholic) was invaded by Indonesia (Islamic) in 1975. It regained independence in 1999. Australian troops still maintain a peacekeepng presence.

There are also recent internal conflicts in Sudan and Nigeria. They have many reasons though. Religion was only part of the reason.

Depending on your definition of invade, if you include peacekeeping, then most nations in the UN have invaded an Islamic country.

The majority Islamic nations, for the most part do not have the capability to invade another nation. They either dont have the money, dont have the military force, have significant internal conflict to deal with or have far inferior military forces to the majority Christian nations.

I would suggest that these reasons are the why there have been few Islamic invasions into Christian nations. You cant tell me that there are not Islamic groups and nations who do not think they deserve to take over Christian nations. They just lack the capability.

I would not say that any Christian nation has invaded an Islamic nation in recent history because their religious teachings told them to. It has been done for resources mostly, and peacekeeping.

I am not on either side. I wont be defending either side. I am an athiest. I see all of the religious conflicts as equally appalling and pointless regardless of who invades who.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 08-17-2011 8:45 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by jar, posted 08-17-2011 10:18 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 188 of 189 (629377)
08-17-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Butterflytyrant
08-17-2011 9:59 AM


Re: Name the country ...
But very seldom in recent history has religion ever been more than a tool used as opposed to a driving force.

But if we substitute "Western" for "Christian", Western (predominately Christian) nations have been invading and occupying Muslim nations regularly for the last few hundred years.

When they have not been actually invading the Western Nations have been setting up the governments, drawing the borders, over turning elections, killing or deposing rulers, using force to gain economic or resource control.

No Muslim nation in the last few hundred years has posed a real threat to any Western Nation, certainly since the Ottoman Empire.

Religion has not played a major role in Nation State conflict in centuries, and it is not a driving force today.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-17-2011 9:59 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
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Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2766 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(2)
Message 189 of 189 (629391)
08-17-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by jar
08-17-2011 10:18 AM


Re: Name the country ...
Religion has not played a major role in Nation State conflict in centuries, and it is not a driving force today.

I agree with this. The religious battles are often internal struggles. Or struggles that are not one nation state vs another nations state but one ideology vs another ideology.

The Taiping Rebellion was in the mid 1800s and was religiously motivated. Religion was a big motivator in the Bosnian Conflict, the Sudanese civil war was Mulims vs Christians and animists (there are many other reasons too), The Troubles in N Ireland had religious motivations, Jews, Muslims and Christians in Palestine (Israel vs muslims), The seperation of India and pakistan, Muslims vs Hindus in Sth E Asia, Christian vs Muslim in Cote D' Lvoire, Christians vs Muslims in Cyrpus (Peacekeepers still stationed and the two groups divided), Hindus vs Muslims in Kashmire, Muslims vs Christians in Kosovo, Muslims vs Christians in Macedonia (now at peace), Muslims vs Christians in the Phillipines, Christians vs Muslims in Uganda, Muslims vs Muslims in Iraq, Muslims vs Muslims in Pakistan and Muslims vs Muslims in Somalia.

I wont do what so many people seem to do and put WW2 in the list. There was so much more going on in the world to cause the conflict than religion. There was a religious element, but the main driving force was nationalism.

Religion is a major motivator in a lot of conflict. We cant get away from that. We also cant get away from the fact that people can justify doing the most horrible things because their chosen religious leaders tell them to. There are examples of people doing terrible things to each other for all sorts of reasons. Tribalism in Africa (Rwanda in particular) and the drug wars in Sth America would be two good modern examples. But just because there are other people doing bad things for other reasons does not mean that it is acceptable for religious people to use their religion to do bad things. It is very hard to find a modern example of a group of people who are willing to kill and die (even through suicide attacks) so quickly and publically as the extreme Islamic groups. A good modern example is the fatwa against Salman Rushdie by Irans spritual leader, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. There is still a $2.8 million bounty on his head for writing a work of fiction. What other group would be so public about threatening a writer for something like that? In Australia, there has been recent examples of Islamic elders preaching hatred against Australia and all western nations. If we were to act with the same fire that he preaches, he would have been killed in a matter of days. There was a particularly unpleasant man in Perth who came under investigation after police were alerted by Australian Muslims. This was the perfect way for this to be done. People of his own faith denounced his statements publically.

Check out youtube videos of recent American white power rallies (i am not setting up a straw man, just picking something obvious that exists in our societies). In all cases, you will see white people publically denouncing their ranting. White politicians and business people on local TV, newspapers and radio speaking out against it. You even see white power groups on Jerry Springer getting hammered (not very current, they are reruns). What I dont think we see enough of is Islamic groups standing up against Islamic groups in Western nations. Coyote had some images of the Danish cartoon protests. There should have been twice the number of Islamic people protesting AGAINST these people on the street. The fringe elements need to be told by people of their own faith that what they are doing is wrong. I know this cant really happen in many Islamic nations. But in Western nations, it should be the nrom. Those protests should be the same as the race hate protests. The finge should be outnumbered 10 to 1 by people publically denouncing their hatred.

There was a bunch of religious world leaders who got together in 1999 because they saw how big the problem was and put a statement out about the religious conflict of the world. They recognised 56 ongoing conflicts with a significant religios motivation. Check it out.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_prom.htm

My favourite part is a quote from the Dalai Lama (I really love that guy)
He said that those who waged war in the name of religion had failed to look beyond their religion to other faiths which they opposed. If they did examine other faiths, they would recognize the same desire for transformation as in their own.

If Muslim nations posed no threats to Western nations, then Isreal would have no army and no one would care if Iran became nuclear capable. It depends on what you consider to be a 'real threat'. I would say that the folks in the Twin Towers and the people on the London buses who were killed saw a real threat.

I dont want this to sound like I totally disagree with your point though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by jar, posted 08-17-2011 10:18 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
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