iano writes:
I'm not sure I understand your argument. If this is an accurate report of what took place then there is nothing anti-semitic about it.
Be real. There is nothing realistic about this nonsensical scene. The dialogue given is patently unrealistic. People simply don't talk or behave that way. The Jewish crowd are portrayed as cartoon villains, there is no attempt at realism. The Gospels describe this scene in very different ways and what they do describe is counter to everything we know about Roman governance. The whole scene with Pilate and Christ is, if not a fiction, at best a highly fictionalised account. Claiming it as accurate reportage is a big stretch of the imagination.
This quote is one of the most troublesome in the long history of Christian persecution of Jews. It is Blood Libel. It portrays an entire people as being Christ-killers. And, as you are again doubtless already aware, this is far from the only such offensively anti-Semitic quote. Perhaps this one is a little less ambiguous for you;
quote:
2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
1 Thessalonians 2;14-16
The Jews killed Christ, they are "contrary to men", they are against God, they always sin to the maximum possible and one day wrath will visit them.
That you should offer this as a potential source of spiritual comfort to
Jews who were being persecuted by Christians is disgustingly offensive. I suppose if they were starving, you would have offered them bacon sandwiches.
To unravel:
1) God placed conditions "don't eat or else"
Not to me he didn't. I have taken none of his precious fruit. You revel in collective punishment. That you are unable to grasp that punishing innocent children for the "sins" of their ancestors is evil, is yet another sign of your utter moral blindness.
And that is before we even note that the Eden story is bloody fictional and that these "sins" never took place at all.
2) God doesn't have to ask our permission to set conditions. He owns us and can set any condition he likes.
Once again, you embrace slavery, thus offering further evidence that you are sociopathic or simply evil.
3) His one true route isn't in any way affected by the fact that blind men can't see it. You see, it's his job to save us, not ours.
And every Muslim would no doubt call you blind. Typically empty religious excuse making.
By the way, all God needs to save us from seems to be himself. He could simply not send people to hell, but no, he has to dress it up in a ridiculous parlour game. This makes absolutely no sense.
If measuring yourself according to the Biblical standard? Surely not!
By the "Biblical standard" (as if there was so simple a thing) we are all sinners. That is one of the most vile notions I have ever heard. It undermines any claim by Christians that the Bible can offer us any kind of morality. So, no, I would not use the Biblical standard, because neither a sociopath or a moron. If everyone is an evildoer, the word evil loses any value.
GM writes:
I would not place myself before judgement by your god though, because he has roved himself a moral imbecile and a cruel, vindictive monster.
iano writes:
As if that alters anything.
It may not alter anything for you, but I think that most people would prefer not to worship a vindictive monster. That you don't seem to see the problem is yet further indication of your sociopathic tendencies.
Yet you wouldn't hope God stops you committing the sins you'll commit today.
I have committed no "sins" today and quite frankly, fuck you, you arrogant arse.
So let me illustrate: as far as God is concerned, you and Hitler are like two grains of sand on the beach with you pointing out that you're ever so much closer to the moon (if closeness to it reflected your level of goodness) than Hitler.
You might not like it but that's the position.
Now you are comparing me to Hitler? Seriously, fuck you iano.
And, yet again, we see more evidence that you have not the slightest clue what morality is.
Start cranking up the desire level until the "simply not right" restraint is overcome.
Again, bullshit. Not everyone thinks like you. Some people have a wonderful thing called a conscience. That you seem unfamiliar with the concept is, yet again, an indicator of severe personality disorder. Not everyone thinks like you, thank God.
But God wants to punish wrongdoing. It's a function of holiness - something which he cannot change about himself.
And that is why I call him a monster; he could prevent or forgive wrongdoing, but instead, he chooses wrath.
To forgive means to pay the cost of the offence yourself. God offers to do that in Christ.
Jesus having a bad weekend has absolutely no connection to real forgiveness. It is an empty blood ritual that has no connection to people's "sins". It achieves nothing. My wrongdoings are my own. Jesus can no more take responsibility for my wrongdoing than he can take credit for my achievements.
If God wants to forgive us for the imagined "sins" that apparently so upset him, all he need do is forgive us. But, no, he has to force us to jump through these bizarre hoops.
The rules aren't either arbitrary or obscure. Everyone ever born has a conscience (a knowledge of good and evil).
Except for sociopaths And you apparently.
And everyone ever born has access to the exact same set of rules.
This is a straightforward lie. Millions have been born and died without ever having seen a Bible.
What basis is there for supposing punishment being carried out in any other currency?
I dunno... mercy? Another unfamiliar concept I'm guessing.
You would agree that your belief wouldn't alter things if they are indeed true?
Regardless of whether he is real or not, I can assure you that desire to separate myself from God does not motivate me at all. Outside of discussions like these, I never give him much thought.
Ask yourself if you are motivated by a desire to be separated from Brahma and you might get the idea.
Did you notice my saying "in so far as it is commandeered.." If you take the arguments as they are applied to the Jewish god in the film and criticise the biblical God with same then you're at crossed purposes.
You're mixing up your gods.
You are the one who started this discussion by suggesting that Jews should turn to the NT. Mixing up the two versions of God (the same God of course) was your game. I have been trying to point out to you how offensive this is throughout.
To suggest that Jews who are being slaughtered by Christians just need a bit more Christianity is spectacularly callous and insulting.
Mutate and Survive
On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage
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