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EvC Forum ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Faith and Belief ⇒

The evolution of hell: how rhetoric changes religion

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Author Topic:   The evolution of hell: how rhetoric changes religion
nwr
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Posts: 6487
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005

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Message 13 of 66 (600929)
01-17-2011 7:58 PM 		Reply to: Message 10 by ApostateAbe
01-17-2011 6:46 PM

ApostateAbe writes:
With the theory of evolution, there was no scientific reason left to believe in God, and biology was formerly a very big scientific reason.
Before the theory of evolution, there was already no scientific reason to believe in God.
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Scientists tend to be skeptical. Those that believed in a God, mostly took a deistic like view of God - roughly, deism + Jesus. And they were probably full of doubt about the miracles.
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The reason there there are more biologists than other scientists who become atheists, seems to be that biologists see first hand the cruelty of nature and find it difficult to square that with the Christian idea of a loving God.
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Jesus was a liberal hippie
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 Message 10 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-17-2011 6:46 PM ApostateAbe has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005

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Message 15 of 66 (600934)
01-17-2011 8:21 PM 		Reply to: Message 14 by ApostateAbe
01-17-2011 8:02 PM

ApostateAbe writes:
Absolutely. Deism, or belief in God without belief in religion, was at least seemingly close to the predominant belief among philosophers and scientists.
For most people, there aren't many important differences between deism and atheism.
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ApostateAbe writes:
Where is deism, now? It was replaced by atheism, because there was no more reason left to believe in any sort of God at all.
But I doubt that evolution was important for that. I suspect that it has more to do other changes which have lead to a reduction in the social pressure against atheism.
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Jesus was a liberal hippie
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 Message 14 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-17-2011 8:02 PM ApostateAbe has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005

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Message 17 of 66 (600940)
01-17-2011 8:44 PM 		Reply to: Message 16 by ApostateAbe
01-17-2011 8:33 PM

ApostateAbe writes:
You find it more probable, then, that even the vocally anti-religious philosophers such as Voltaire and Jefferson were merely lying about their preference for deism over atheism to spare them from the anti-atheistic forces of society than to believe that they really did think that the existence of God was probable following from the argument that there was no other way to explain life and humanity.
I would not accuse them of lying. Either deism or atheism avoids religious commitment. It doesn't make much of a difference as far as I can tell. I expect that they were influenced by social pressures, but so what? If I wear a shirt because of social pressures, does that make it a lie to wear a shirt?
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Jesus was a liberal hippie
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 Message 16 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-17-2011 8:33 PM ApostateAbe has replied
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 Message 18 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-17-2011 8:52 PM nwr has replied
  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005

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Message 19 of 66 (600944)
01-17-2011 8:59 PM 		Reply to: Message 18 by ApostateAbe
01-17-2011 8:52 PM

ApostateAbe writes:
OK, just to be clear, you find it more probable even the vocally anti-religious philosophers such as Voltaire and Jefferson were pressured to keep out of atheism by the anti-atheistic forces of society than to believe that they really did think that the existence of God was probable following from the argument that there was no other way to explain life and humanity. Is that right?
No, I am not suggesting that.
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I am suggesting that they sensed implicit societal pressures, not that they were explicitly and specifically pressured.
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Jesus was a liberal hippie
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 Message 18 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-17-2011 8:52 PM ApostateAbe has replied
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 Message 20 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-17-2011 9:30 PM nwr has replied
  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005

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Message 21 of 66 (600963)
01-17-2011 11:15 PM 		Reply to: Message 20 by ApostateAbe
01-17-2011 9:30 PM

ApostateAbe writes:
I think those people were generally telling the truth as they actually believed, and Darwin's theory caused an actual shift in belief in society about the existence of God, following from the shift in the best available explanation for life.
I'm not convinced that Darwin's theory made that much difference.
​
Jesus was a liberal hippie
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