Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9072 total)
72 online now:
AZPaul3, Phat (2 members, 70 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,178 Year: 4,290/6,534 Month: 504/900 Week: 28/182 Day: 0/16 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The evolution of hell: how rhetoric changes religion
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1107 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 8 of 66 (600883)
01-17-2011 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ApostateAbe
01-15-2011 6:44 PM


ApostateAbe writes:

quote:
At the end of the 19th century, something happened. Darwin's theory allowed atheism to become a reasonable thing to believe.

Huh? What on earth does evolution have to do with atheism. You make it seem like there were no atheists before Darwin.

What nonsense. Evolution did not lead to any rise of atheism.

quote:
And that is why rhetoric matters.

Indeed. And inflammatory rhetoric doesn't help.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-15-2011 6:44 PM ApostateAbe has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by bluescat48, posted 01-17-2011 6:02 PM Rrhain has taken no action
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-18-2011 11:57 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1107 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 40 of 66 (601172)
01-19-2011 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ApostateAbe
01-17-2011 6:46 PM


ApostateAbe writes:

quote:
I would prefer not to dispute the point with Rrhain

Then you're going to have to make your comments where I can't see them and reply to them. If you don't like your claims being subjected to scrutiny, then perhaps you shouldn't post them in a place that invites such examination.

quote:
Atheists did exist before Darwin, but they were not nearly as many, not nearly as well known, and not nearly as influential as until after Darwin.

Which, of course, is completely unsubstantiated.

Or have you forgotten about a rather famous man called "Socrates." He got himself killed for his atheism.

The problem, of course, is knowing exactly what it would take to convince you that your attitude is incorrect. Do you simply need a list of famous atheists? For crying out loud, the "problem of evil" goes all the way back to the Ancient Greeks, at least, as Epicurus is listed as coming up with the phrasing we have heard: Whence cometh evil? If god wants to prevent it but cannot, then he is impotent. If he can but chooses not to, then he is malevolent. But if he can prevent it and wants to, then where on earth does evil come from?

Have you forgotten about William of Ockham, from whom we get the infamous razor? Machiavelli, Rabelais, da Vinci?

While the French Revolution was about a lot of things, one of them was an overthrow of religious influence.

Have you forgotten about Schopenhauer?

How many atheists do you need to be reminded about before it occurs to you that perhaps your claim is not based upon any evidence?

quote:
With the theory of evolution, there was no scientific reason left to believe in God, and biology was formerly a very big scientific reason.

Incorrect.

First, you ignore the reality behind the development of evolutionary theory. Darwin didn't discover evolution. What he did was come up with a mechanism for how it happens. Evolution had been discussed and debated for many years before Darwin published. And let's not forget, he waited more than a decade to publish his Origin of Species and that only because Wallace was going to beat him to it.

Second, you ignore all the other reasons people had for not believing in god. Simply from a philosophical viewpoint, the idea of theism has had problems. Again, the "problem of evil" goes back more than two millennia. There's a reason that Jefferson rewrote the New Testament: It wasn't because of evolution.

The Neo-Classic period was filled with deists and others who denied the divinity of god or at the very least the active involvement of such in life on this planet. There's a reason that the clockwork universe was the dominant paradigm of the 18th Century.

quote:
When Darwin's theory became established at the end of the 19th century as the only theory besides God to explain life, 100 years after Lyell had already explained the planet Earth without God, that is when we see a big historical shift toward atheism

And thus showing you haven't actually studied this topic at all if you think they're the only ones who had anything of any significance to say about atheism.

Again, do you simply need a list of names? What is it going to take to convince you?

quote:
If you underestimate the influence of Darwin's theory on religion and philosophy, then I suggest that you find another way to explain the rise of atheism.

What about simple philosophy? It's been good enough for all the other atheists. What's so special about any one piece of scientific inquiry?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-17-2011 6:46 PM ApostateAbe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-19-2011 1:02 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1107 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 41 of 66 (601173)
01-19-2011 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by ApostateAbe
01-17-2011 11:46 PM


ApostateAbe writes:

quote:
Life is complex, complex things require design, design requires a designer, all religious traditions identify a god as the designer, therefore God exists.

So what did Darwin do that Newton couldn't? The universe is even more complex and he reduced it to a few laws.

quote:
Why not just believe that the theory of evolution really did cause the late 19th century rise in atheism? Is there a good reason why not?

Because it isn't true. Isn't that the best reason? There are too many atheists from before the time of evolution to conclude that evolution had anything to do with it.

What's it going to take to convince you? How many atheists must we name?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-17-2011 11:46 PM ApostateAbe has taken no action

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1107 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 42 of 66 (601174)
01-19-2011 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
01-18-2011 11:57 AM


Catholic Scientist responds to me:

quote:
quote:
What nonsense. Evolution did not lead to any rise of atheism.

What makes you so sure?


All the atheists from before the development of evolutionary theory.

Same question to you: What would it take to convince you? Do you just need a list of names?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-18-2011 11:57 AM New Cat's Eye has taken no action

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1107 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 43 of 66 (601175)
01-19-2011 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ApostateAbe
01-18-2011 5:15 PM


Re: Also...
ApostateAbe writes:

quote:
But, to look at the converse, the theory of evolution is extremely relevant to the question of whether or not gods exist, because gods are and have been very often and very widely used to explain life on Earth. The connection is very straightforward.

Incorrect.

Or are you saying the Catholic Church doesn't think god exists? Or that the connection isn't straightforward?

Yes, the official position of the Catholic Church is that evolution is the only scientific explanation for how life diversified on this planet. So if one of the biggest religions on the planet doesn't seem to have a problem with it, why do you insist that it is a problem?

quote:
Physics, chemistry and geology were big scientific hurdles to a purely naturalistic model of the universe, and biology was the biggest.

Which completely ignores the entire 18th Century. Yeah, Newton was a religious whackadoodle, but it is because of his development of the clockwork universe (building upon the work of Galileo...another person who wasn't that enamored on the whole god thing) that we even have a scientific revolution in the first place.

quote:
The creation of life is central to religion

Incorrect. It is only central to some religions.

quote:
That is why the theory of evolution made such a big difference in belief.

Except it didn't. Atheism didn't have any surge after the publication of Origin of Species and there were too many atheists from the millennia before its publication to justify such a claim.

What is it going to take to convince you? So far, a lot of the people you've mentioned were from before Darwin. What does that tell you about your investigation into your claim?

quote:
Maybe it had such an effect only because of the accumulation of all of the science that preceded it. Sure, I think that is an acceptable proposition.

No, it isn't. Again, there were simply too many atheists from before the scientific revolution. Religion and the existence of god have always had their detractors, have always had philosophical arguments against them.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-18-2011 5:15 PM ApostateAbe has taken no action

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1107 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 45 of 66 (601180)
01-19-2011 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by ApostateAbe
01-19-2011 1:02 AM


ApostateAbe responds to me:

quote:
If anyone thinks that Rrhain makes any serious points, then I will respond. I would otherwise like to refrain from arguing with him.

Read: "I can't defend my claim."

Look, I asked you nicely what it would take for you to consider the possibility that you were wrong. Is there nothing that would cause you to reconsider? No amount of evidence would be sufficient?

Time to put up or shut up.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-19-2011 1:02 AM ApostateAbe has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022