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Author | Topic: What is design? Can we not find evidence of design on earth or in the universe? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
First of all, a few feet closer or a few feet farther from the sun don't matter one bit. But I think you have it turned around, life on earth fits the earth so perfectly because it evolved to adapt to the circumstances the earth has. Not because the earth was designed to bring forth exactly this kind of life. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Your first mistake is assuming the Earth was "placed" here, while we have a perfectly natural explanation of how the earth came to be where it is now. As for your combining your own questions, the way it "sounds to the man in the street" has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it being true. Something being true or not does NOT depend on popular oppinion. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
The mountain's called Mount Rushmore. Then what about "the face on Mars"? Was that designed? It looks like a face after all.... I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Those faces were designed, we know they were, we have evidence of the design process. Now, please answer my question. Was the face on Mars designed? I mean, it looks like a face too. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
My evidence? Well, let's start with an easy one shall we. Here's the Wiki on the construction of Mount Rushmore:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_Mount_Rushmore Details perfectly well the design process and even the process of reshaping the mountain.
Here's a picture of it: http://a.abcnews.com/images/Technology/apr_mars_face_06921_ssv.jpg The camera that took this picture was not manipulated. Furthermore, the point I'm trying to make here is just because something LOOKS designed, it doesn't mean it is. We KNOW the face is not designed, it is a natural feature of Mars, and only because the light hit it at that particular angle when the picture was taken did it look like a face. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
There you go again, ASSUMING there is a goal to the universe, and that that goal is life. As for your bet, I'll take you up on it. Please provide me with clear evidence we are indeed "designed" and i will join your cause. To that "change your mind part" the same goes for you, don't be a part of a system invented to make maintaining control easier, and FREE your mind and think for yourself. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Alrighty:
Yes
Mathematical probability is ABSOLUTELY on its side. Do you have ANY idea how many planets there are? Very many of them will be in the Goldilocks zone. So the earth is very common in that way.
Because that's the way the solar system formed.
Again you turn it around, we know Gideon's goal because he TOLD us. Nobody told us the universe has a goal. First you need to show there IS a goal, then you need to show this goal to be life, then we can talk about if the placement of the earth is good to achieve this goal. In short, don't just ASSUME there is a goal, provide evidence for this, if not, I will start claiming some very different things to you, and then we're stuck and crying nuh-uh to each other.
Truth does not depend on opinion, it depends on facts. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
I can't, however that's not the point, the point is you said probability is against us. Since there are gazillions of planets, that even one of them would turn out like earth is VERY probable.
Because of the laws of physics.
No you haven't, you ASSUME there is a goal. If you say there is a goal, you have to point to the evidence supporting this. Saying: "there is life on earth, therefore life is the goal" is circular reasoning and not evidence at all.
Arguments need to be supported with evidence, not assertions. As for the research......Show me the research that points to: a) The universe having a goal b) That goal being life I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
We are not trying to "get" you, we are trying to teach you something.
Very well.
Uhm...The right distance of the earth from the sun is indeed the result of natural processes. Once conditions are right, life is inevitable.
What do you mean why? Again, once the the conditions are right on a planet, life is inevitable. Since there are a gazillion planets, that this one would have the right conditions for life to arise is VERY VERY likely.
I think I explained it better. At least I have evidence for the natural processes.
Indoctrination, how bad of daddy. He should encourage the child to find it out on his own. Not put himself up as the ultimate authority on things.
The earth is NOT designed, please show evidence when you make statements like that. And you still haven't shown ANYWHERE that life is the goal, you again assume it because there is life here! That's not how it works. If there is a designer, and he had an intention, it should be simple to point to him and say; "there he goes! Hey Mr. designer, you did have an intention right?". Instead you assume he did.
You lie to your child? We all know it's the Flying spaghetti monster that created the earth. See what I did there? You can tell a child anything you like, but it's best to back up your statements with facts.
Intelligence without a body? Sure! Does artificial intelligence ring a bell?
Yes, I get the point, and it's still false. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
That's the same question as asking why an apple tastes like an apple, it's because it's an apple! The natural processes of the universe act that way because that's the way they act. There is no why. It is inevitable that of the gazillion of planets at least one of them got just the right conditions for life to arise. There is no why needed for this. You could claim that god intended the universe to be like this and initiated the big bang, I'm not going to argue that point because there's frankly no evidence for anything at that point and so everything can be claimed about it. But other then that there is no reason for why planet earth has life.
Avoiding the issue? I answered all your points, you just respond by saying Nuh-uh and think you have refuted my arguments, you did not.
No I'm not, so, here we go again : There is no why.
Yes, and as we have explained again and again, there is NO apparent goal to the universe, simply saying that there is does NOT make it so. You need evidence for those kinds of statements, and sadly, you haven't provided any.
No no NO, I don't care if it's valid or not, but to make something valid you need to present EVIDENCE. You have not done so, you have asserted time and again that the universe has a goal without providing so much as a shred of evidence, other than your personal beliefs and assertions, that's not how it works.
Ok.
Yes
Don't know much about salmon, but yes, that sounds about right.
Salmon don't WANT anything, they're animals, they don't have "needs" the way we humans do. So, you're wrong here too, sorry. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Thank you, and may I first say I enjoyed the debate with you. Alright here we go:
Ok, let's see if the argument itself is valid then.
This statement is an assertion, nowhere in the statement do you show anything that would point to the earth having a goal, and that goal being life. You are asserting that the right distance from the earth to the sun and the right conditions on the earth point to a goal, without showing HOW they point to a goal. You're simply saying: "there is life on planet earth because the conditions are right and the conditions being right points to there being a goal, life". Of course there is life when the conditions are right, what you have to do is show HOW these conditions point to there being a goal. Simply saying they are does not make it so. You see ANY planet that is the right distance form its sun and has the right conditions will give rise to life, it doesn't matter if that planet happens to be planet earth or a totally different planet in a totally different galaxy, if life has a chance to arise it will. The fact that earth has life is not indicative for there being a goal to earth. While it is not my place to argue your religious beliefs, I do find it important to point out to you that this of course is not a premise, but a conclusion. You can't use conclusions as your premise. That botches up the argument. What your argument should have looked like is something like this: P1 there is life on earth Simply saying that the the fact that earth has life points to life being the goal here DOES NOT FOLLOW. I did not miss you point, it's just not a valid philosophical argument.
No not really, you kind of missed the point. The point they were trying to make is that saying that the pothole fits the puddle so perfectly is the same as saying that earth fits life so perfectly, when in fact it is the other way around. The puddle fits the pothole perfectly, like life fits the earth perfectly. The puddle couldn't have formed any other shape then the shape of the pothole, nor could life have taken any other route on planet earth. That's the point they were trying to make.
I don't accept your argument because it is flawed, not because I don't want to.
I have found my answer : "there is no why". You may not like it, but I get by pretty darn well with it, and that, to me, is ALL that matters. Hope to see you around some more :) I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Hello again doubting too, was away for the latter part of last week, so here's my somewhat delayed response.
Wow...just wow.... OK, right, since there's been enough ridiculing this statement already, I will simply ask you to provide any evidence for: a)There was a designer for fruit. b)That his goal was to make all fruit taste different. c)That we would in fact DIE of boredom if all fruits tasted the same.
Yes, yet you have failed to show there actually IS a goal, again you simply assert it here.
To discuss who the designer might be, you first have to show that he designed anything at all, else there's no point in speculating on who he might be. I agree of course that if there was a designer AND his identity was known, then we wouldn't need to discuss it, but that's not really the case, now is it?
Ok, fine, but don't expect people to just swallow everything you say. Just because you THINK it is right doesn't mean it IS, that would require showing evidence. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Thank you :D
Breaking a promise for a good reason is OK in my book, I'll check out your link, I will however not debate it here, since it's kinda against the forum rules.
Ok, so it's undoubtedly a nice read, but as far as an argument goes, it's worthless, as it's an appeal to authority.
How would you go about bolstering your argument with a counter-argument? Again, I'm sure the link is fascinating, but it's still bare speculation.
Boredom DOES NOT kill. I'm bored from time to time, yet I'm still here. I don't even eat that much fruit (I know, I'm a bad boy) So even if I did eat some from time to time and it tasted like banana, I wouldn't mind one bit. I hunt for the truth
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1045 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Right, let's have a little look, shall we:
Bolding mine. See, he BELIEVES there is a purpose, he doesn't say, this and that POINTS to there being a purpose, no, he BELIEVES there is. In other words, it's an assertion.
Bit of a pessimist isn't he? Talking about how dark and evil the universe is. But, as I'm sure you have noted, this is his personal BELIEF, not an undeniable fact.
The god of the bible is as much made in man's image as the pagan gods.
Because that's beneficial for the survival of the species.
Yes, it is, and as I'm sure you've noted, neither of them provide ANY evidence for it having a purpose.
Well, I'm pretty sure the first guy would look at you very strangely when you asked him that, in fact, I think the other one would also. Again, I don;t eat that many fruit, so if all fruit tasted like banana, I wouldn't care. Furthermore, I get bored once and again, and I certainly don't kill myself in those moments, nor would I kill myself over anything as silly as all fruit tasting like bananas. I hunt for the truth
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