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Author Topic:   What Properties Might Light of Millennia Past Have that Today's Doesn't?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 33 of 170 (674478)
09-29-2012 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 9:20 AM


Cosmological Statement
I don't understand why your message received a jeer and I felt obligated to give you an offsetting cheer. Nothing wrong with citing the Cosmological Statement IMO.
But it isn't a convincing argument in my opinion. There are of course scientists, engineers and physicists even who reject the Big Bang Theory, but I don't find it all that impressive to list them. I'll also note that the list includes a number of people known to be cranks, some of whom cling to ideas related to cosmology or relativity that can easily be demonstrated to be wrong. I don't much care about what anyone on the list other than the physicists and some of the mathematicians think anyway.
Known cranks that I recognize from a quick perusal of the list and have discussed here in previous threads.
Halton Arp
Paul Marmet
Tom Flandern
John Hartnett
Paul LaViolette
Of course my argument does not prove that these guys are wrong about the Big Bang theory being wrong, but neither does a relatively short list of objectors provide any argument that they are right. My point is that you cannot add support for a theory by giving a short list of scientists and engineers, but that this particularly list has some issues.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 9:20 AM LimpSpider has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Theodoric, posted 09-29-2012 10:34 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 37 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 6:34 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 170 (674604)
09-30-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Percy
09-30-2012 9:52 PM


Frequency is the inverse of wavelength.
I think this is begging the question. Frequency and wavelength are inversely related given that the propagation velocity is constant.
Edited by NoNukes, : remove erroneous stuff.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Percy, posted 09-30-2012 9:52 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 09-30-2012 10:33 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 170 (674691)
10-01-2012 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by LimpSpider
10-01-2012 7:00 PM


Really?
I no longer support the idea of c changing, by the way.
I have no idea what your position is. Why did you ask us questions about c changing?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by LimpSpider, posted 10-01-2012 7:00 PM LimpSpider has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by LimpSpider, posted 10-01-2012 8:14 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 170 (674702)
10-01-2012 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by LimpSpider
10-01-2012 8:14 PM


Re: Really?
Asking questions which you may never have asked yourself?
Do you know me well enough to have a guess about what I may have considered?
If you do some reading, you'll find that we've had any number of threads here in which we've discussed the ramifications of a changing speed of light. So no, you aren't asking any new questions.
If you have an argument to make about properties in the light in the past, and how they may have been different than today, why don't you get to it? Don't worry about whether I can keep up.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by LimpSpider, posted 10-01-2012 8:14 PM LimpSpider has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 170 (674722)
10-02-2012 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by foreveryoung
10-02-2012 1:27 AM


The fine structure constant is dimensionless and can be defined in terms of the permeability of free space, the speed of light in a vacuum, the elementary charge and the reduced plank's constant.
In a scheme of things where the fabric of space itself is changing by means of the zero point energy, all of the above terms are also changing and changing in a way that keeps the fine structure constant....constant. Since it can be constant with a changing speed of light, no need to conjure up ideas about carbon life being impossible.
The problem, as has been pointed out repeatedly, is that changing all of those other 'constants' does have ramifications for life in the universe and life on earth. But it seems that once the discussion turns to discussing those ramifications, and the fact that those changed constants lead to results we ought to be able to observe, you lose all interest in the discussion. It's as if Devil Woman had never been written.
For example, are you seriously suggesting that changing the charge on a proton will have no affect on nuclear fusion? Aren't you going to have to change even more constants to get that to work out?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by foreveryoung, posted 10-02-2012 1:27 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by foreveryoung, posted 10-02-2012 3:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 170 (674727)
10-02-2012 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Son Goku
10-02-2012 5:07 AM


Re: Units.
Only dimensionless quantities have a real existence outside of our mismatch of units. Hence this whole discussion should only be about the fine-structure constant and not the speed of light, as it is the fundamental quantity.
I've never really understood this argument. We might measure the speed of light in furlongs per fortnight. But we also would not expect anything regarding how the universe operates to change because we have done so. Or because we use the English system rather than the metric system, or because we use units based on the orbital rotation of Zormicron and the length of an Acron's nose. The values of those non-fundamental constants includes their units, and we can readily convert from any one set to another using well understood methods.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Son Goku, posted 10-02-2012 5:07 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Son Goku, posted 10-02-2012 12:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 170 (674748)
10-02-2012 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Son Goku
10-02-2012 12:06 PM


Re: Units.
he basic point is that dimensionful constants can always be eliminated from equations of motion. Basically there is no way to distinguish, really, between a change in 'c' and a change in your units of distance.
I appreciate your patience, but I am still struggling with this idea. I see a distinction between c being 3.0 * 10^8 in MKS units and being 6.0 * 10^8 in the same units, because that change would have an affect on matter/energy equivalency. On the other hand, the fact that c is also about 186,282 mi/sec does not have that same effect.
In what sense are the two type of "changes" in the speed of light indistinguishable? Or alternatively where can I find these ideas presented?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Son Goku, posted 10-02-2012 12:06 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Son Goku, posted 10-02-2012 5:10 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 170 (674757)
10-02-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by foreveryoung
10-02-2012 3:34 PM


removed to avoid dogpile
Edited by NoNukes, : Better explained by others.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by foreveryoung, posted 10-02-2012 3:34 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 96 of 170 (674824)
10-03-2012 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by foreveryoung
10-03-2012 12:25 AM


Burden shifting not accepted.
If changes in the constants would show its effects no matter how the constants change in time, it should be a simple matter for you to show mathematically that there exists no such arrangements of constants that are changing in time that could produce a universe with no known effects.
It would not be a simple matter to show generally what you require, but we do know that the attempts to show some kind of changing in tandem constants have been dismal failures. Plugging up your own ears and losing your temper when those failures are discussed doesn't make the failures go away.
And besides all that, have you forgotten that you do want the changes in constants to have had an effect. You want the speed of light to have been greater in the past, and you also want the rate of radioactive decay to have been greater in the past so that your interpretation of Genesis can be correct. It's just that you don't want these macroscopic changes in reality to have left any discernable effects. You want a universe which appears to be like this one, but is actually different.
If you want to convince someone that you are correct, then the responsibility for putting together a persuasive post is yours. Stringing together a bunch of assertions, as you do here, and connecting them with "the fact of the matter" isn't going to persuade anyone.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by foreveryoung, posted 10-03-2012 12:25 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by foreveryoung, posted 10-03-2012 11:36 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 102 of 170 (674894)
10-04-2012 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by foreveryoung
10-03-2012 11:36 PM


Re: Burden shifting not accepted.
I lose my temper because of all of the sarcasm and insults and condescension and piling on.
You are always welcome to ignore me. But you've admitted in this thread that part of the reason for losing your temper is the audience having their fingers in their ears. In other words, because your ideas are not given what you consider to be proper consideration.
Here is some truth for you. You start a thread in this forum with the title "Debunking Setterfields Speed of Light Model". After stating that you wished to discuss Jellison's rebuttal of Setterfield's model, you made a single post indicating that you had only read parts of the article you wanted to discuss, and despite the fact that any number of people did read the article and posted substantive remarks, you never got around to engaging any discussion. My own post Message 7 which was quite earlier in the thread, contains disagreement with you but no sarcasm. My remaining posts were not even addressed to you, but to others because you didn't even bother participating. Once the physics starts being discussed, you are always long gone.
And it isn't just sarcasm or condescension that makes you blow up. You've blown up at least once simply because nobody would take you seriously without seeing some evidence.
Piling on? The record shows that you received only 5 responses to your two posts in the Setterfield thread.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by foreveryoung, posted 10-03-2012 11:36 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by foreveryoung, posted 10-04-2012 3:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 109 of 170 (674972)
10-04-2012 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by foreveryoung
10-04-2012 3:12 PM


Re: Burden shifting not accepted.
You cannot have a conversation with someone if they are not listening.
Your posts are being read and responded to. So we are listening. But by and large your posts are not persuasive. So if it is indeed not being listened to that makes you angry, then you ought to be down right cheerful every time you see a post that is completely responsive to your posts.
But that is not what I see happening. Do I really need to cite examples?
In this case, it is clear that you are being listened to. There is no question IMO, that the people who are asking you to anchor your position by telling us the reasons for pegging the earth's age at orders of magnitude less than a billion years, or who are asking for your reason for believing that geological ages are all wrong have listened to your arguments. Are you going to address those arguments.
Edited by NoNukes, : Add some on topic content.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by foreveryoung, posted 10-04-2012 3:12 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 170 (675148)
10-06-2012 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-06-2012 8:31 PM


Remember any location on that sphere is separated not only from your present location but also from any other location at the same distance from you.
You understand of course that this sentence is demonstrably false. A moments thought ought to convince you of that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-06-2012 8:31 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-06-2012 11:54 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 170 (675151)
10-07-2012 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-06-2012 11:54 PM


Gibberish
Regardless of whether there ever was a big bang or not, the sentence that I quoted is absolute rubbish. It is a trivial mater to select points and locations for which the statement is untrue.
quote:
Remember any location on that sphere is separated not only from your present location but also from any other location at the same distance from you
Speaking of not even being wrong, how is that definition of energy coming along?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-06-2012 11:54 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-07-2012 1:10 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 118 of 170 (675153)
10-07-2012 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-07-2012 1:10 AM


Re: Gibberish
Excuse me genius, but if John stands 15 meter to the left of me and Mary stands 15 meter to the right, the distance separating John and Mary is not 15 meter. Is that too hard for you to grasp?
Sure. That's pretty easy to grasp. Now can you picture a situation where John and Mary are each 1500 meters (or any other distance) away from you and yet the two are in contact with each other? Because that arrangement would also meet the description in your sentence. Below, I quote that sentence for the third time, this time with emphasis added by me.
Remember any location on that sphere is separated not only from your present location but also from any other location at the same distance from you.
Condescension only works when you are right about something.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-07-2012 1:10 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-07-2012 2:22 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 120 of 170 (675155)
10-07-2012 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-07-2012 2:22 AM


Re: Gibberish
In contact or not they are not occupying the same location.
Sure dude. That's exactly what you meant when you gave your example of people on opposite sides of the sphere surrounding you. If instead you are simply saying that two objects cannot occupy the same point, then you needn't have discussed the sphere at all, right?
I should know by now that discussion with you is not productive. I've got some code to write, so I'm gonna get back to it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-07-2012 2:22 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-07-2012 3:24 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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