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Author Topic:   When Earth’s population was 10,000 persons
Taq
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Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(1)
Message 4 of 194 (601912)
01-24-2011 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by goldenlightArchangel
01-24-2011 1:48 PM


The real fact is that regardless of disease, natural disasters, wars and famine, human population has never stopped growing. History proves that Humans are able to impede animal growth but never their own.

Humans have shown that they are able to land on the moon, so why didn't we see people in the 1700's landing on the moon?

What you ignore is the development of technology that is required for modern human population growth. This development starts quite slow, and is dependent on random inventions along the way to keep things moving. On top of that, you need a stable society that requires thousands of years of developing cultivars capable of sustaining a static population. You need enough food that people can devote their life to not growing food, and instead focusing on increasing our knowledge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 01-24-2011 1:48 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 01-31-2011 1:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 45 of 194 (602911)
02-01-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by goldenlightArchangel
01-31-2011 1:55 PM


Re: Only stable families constitute a stable society
Even so, when Earth's population was 10,000 a single family did not require a stable society

In those days, from all ethnic groups in Europe, there was always (at least) 1,000 inhabitants or more who were stable enough to only do what is best for their children.

So how did they innoculate their children against diptheria?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 01-31-2011 1:55 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-02-2011 9:39 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 47 of 194 (603025)
02-02-2011 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by goldenlightArchangel
02-02-2011 9:39 AM


Re: Only stable families constitute a stable society
however that is not what reality tells us.

Since when have any of your statements been grounded in reality? Every one of your posts is made up from whole cloth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-02-2011 9:39 AM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-02-2011 12:21 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 49 of 194 (603039)
02-02-2011 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by goldenlightArchangel
02-02-2011 12:21 PM


Re: Only stable families constitute a stable society
Especially because whoever brings up a theory (that places human beings living on the Earth 70 thousand years ago) should be able to explain it regardless of other persons words

The fact that we find modern human skeletons that are 70,000 years old indicates that there were modern humans around 70,000 years ago. We tend to call this "evidence", something which you seem unfamiliar with.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 50 of 194 (603040)
02-02-2011 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by goldenlightArchangel
01-24-2011 1:48 PM


CrazyDiamond7,

In the OP you stated:

"The real fact is that regardless of disease, natural disasters, wars and famine, human population has never stopped growing."

You have not demonstrated this fact. It is made up out of whole cloth. If this is your theory then you should be able to cite the evidence that supports it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 01-24-2011 1:48 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-02-2011 2:25 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 52 of 194 (603058)
02-02-2011 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by goldenlightArchangel
02-02-2011 2:25 PM


Re: If their population ever stopped growing ....
However, there is a huge flaw that many don't want to see; Consider that most of our current technological advances have ocurred within the last 200 years,

one could even go back to the last 1,000 years and it would still prove that the natural selection theory (in regards to the origin of this most recent version of Human beings) is incorrect.

How is one related to the other?

If I took a modern human baby and transported it to an island where it never came into contact with modern technology or any knowledge garnered over the last 5,000 years would that child be able to rediscover quantum mechanics in it's lifetime?

At the same time, if that baby grew up in modern society with access to modern knowledge could that baby grow up to be a scientist who studies quantum mechanics?

Obviously, this has nothing to do with natural selection directly.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 55 of 194 (603065)
02-02-2011 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by goldenlightArchangel
02-02-2011 3:01 PM


Re: If their population ever stopped growing ....
knowing that the left behind prototypes has nothing to do with ancestry

How do we know that? Evidence please.


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 Message 54 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-02-2011 3:01 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 57 of 194 (603072)
02-02-2011 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by goldenlightArchangel
02-02-2011 3:51 PM


Re: What differentiates human prototypes from alleged ancestry
That a skeleton of left behind prototypes, dated at 30,000 years, has nothing to do with ancestry is evident; Were they placed on the Earth to constitute families, there would be found bodies of at least 2 families in a certain place,

How do you determine if two bodies are from two families? What evidence are you using?

because humans tend to gather the dead bodies of their parents or children not too far from one another.

What about nomadic people who migrate large distances in a single year? How did you determine that all of our ancestors followed the same practices as we do? Evidence please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-02-2011 3:51 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-02-2011 4:14 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 59 of 194 (603083)
02-02-2011 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by goldenlightArchangel
02-02-2011 4:14 PM


Re: What differentiates human prototypes from alleged ancestry
The rest of the sentence clears up that it's a tendency;
not a determined thing.

Then all we have is your unevidenced assertion that 30,000 year old humans are not our ancestors.

However, DNA can tell us if these 30,000 year old humans were our ancestors. Guess what? That work has been done.

quote:

A 28,000 years old Cro-Magnon mtDNA sequence differs from all potentially contaminating modern sequences.

Caramelli D, Milani L, Vai S, Modi A, Pecchioli E, Girardi M, Pilli E, Lari M, Lippi B, Ronchitelli A, Mallegni F, Casoli A, Bertorelle G, Barbujani G.

Dipartimento di Biologia Evoluzionistica, Università di Firenze, Firenze, Italy.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: DNA sequences from ancient specimens may in fact result from undetected contamination of the ancient specimens by modern DNA, and the problem is particularly challenging in studies of human fossils. Doubts on the authenticity of the available sequences have so far hampered genetic comparisons between anatomically archaic (Neandertal) and early modern (Cro-Magnoid) Europeans.

METHODOLOGY/PRINCIPAL FINDINGS: We typed the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) hypervariable region I in a 28,000 years old Cro-Magnoid individual from the Paglicci cave, in Italy (Paglicci 23) and in all the people who had contact with the sample since its discovery in 2003. The Paglicci 23 sequence, determined through the analysis of 152 clones, is the Cambridge reference sequence, and cannot possibly reflect contamination because it differs from all potentially contaminating modern sequences.

CONCLUSIONS/SIGNIFICANCE: The Paglicci 23 individual carried a mtDNA sequence that is still common in Europe, and which radically differs from those of the almost contemporary Neandertals, demonstrating a genealogical continuity across 28,000 years, from Cro-Magnoid to modern Europeans. Because all potential sources of modern DNA contamination are known, the Paglicci 23 sample will offer a unique opportunity to get insight for the first time into the nuclear genes of early modern Europeans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18628960


So I have evidence that 30,000 year old modern humans in Europe have descendants in Europe today. What evidence do you have to the contrary?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-02-2011 4:14 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-03-2011 11:22 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 64 of 194 (603210)
02-03-2011 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by goldenlightArchangel
02-03-2011 11:22 AM


Re: What differentiates human prototypes from alleged ancestry
Proof of ancestry grounded in reality was not presented, for example, 2 skeletons; father and son or mother and her child.

I guess you missed one of my prior posts. Here it is again:

quote:
PLoS One. 2008 Jul 16;3(7):e2700.

A 28,000 years old Cro-Magnon mtDNA sequence differs from all potentially contaminating modern sequences.

Caramelli D, Milani L, Vai S, Modi A, Pecchioli E, Girardi M, Pilli E, Lari M, Lippi B, Ronchitelli A, Mallegni F, Casoli A, Bertorelle G, Barbujani G.

Dipartimento di Biologia Evoluzionistica, Università di Firenze, Firenze, Italy.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: DNA sequences from ancient specimens may in fact result from undetected contamination of the ancient specimens by modern DNA, and the problem is particularly challenging in studies of human fossils. Doubts on the authenticity of the available sequences have so far hampered genetic comparisons between anatomically archaic (Neandertal) and early modern (Cro-Magnoid) Europeans.

METHODOLOGY/PRINCIPAL FINDINGS: We typed the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) hypervariable region I in a 28,000 years old Cro-Magnoid individual from the Paglicci cave, in Italy (Paglicci 23) and in all the people who had contact with the sample since its discovery in 2003. The Paglicci 23 sequence, determined through the analysis of 152 clones, is the Cambridge reference sequence, and cannot possibly reflect contamination because it differs from all potentially contaminating modern sequences.

CONCLUSIONS/SIGNIFICANCE: The Paglicci 23 individual carried a mtDNA sequence that is still common in Europe, and which radically differs from those of the almost contemporary Neandertals, demonstrating a genealogical continuity across 28,000 years, from Cro-Magnoid to modern Europeans. Because all potential sources of modern DNA contamination are known, the Paglicci 23 sample will offer a unique opportunity to get insight for the first time into the nuclear genes of early modern Europeans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18628960


30,000 year old modern human skeletons found in Europe are the ancestors of modern Europeans as the DNA evidence demonstrates.

Contrary to expectations, history has demonstrated that there's no reason why it would have been impossible for Humans to have reached a population of 1 million persons in less than 20 thousand years, when the population was 10,000

But you are saying that this boom HAD TO HAPPEN 30,000 years ago, and since it didn't those human-like skeletons had to be from something other than modern humans.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-03-2011 11:22 AM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-03-2011 12:48 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 66 of 194 (603227)
02-03-2011 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by goldenlightArchangel
02-03-2011 12:48 PM


Re: What differentiates human prototypes from alleged ancestry
Anyone's genetic combination might be a genealogical continuity of whoever it will be; and that is very different from a paternity test.

False. Mitochondrial DNA extracted from Neanderthals from the same region and the same time period demonstrated that their mitochondrial lineages do not have a living representative in Europe. DNA sequencing is a paternity test, and it demonstrates that the population of modern humans 30,000 years ago are the ancestors of modern Europeans.

ABE: Mitochondrial DNA actually serves more as a maternity test, but that is beside the point.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-03-2011 12:48 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-03-2011 2:47 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 68 of 194 (603293)
02-03-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by goldenlightArchangel
02-03-2011 2:47 PM


Re: What differentiates human prototypes from alleged ancestry
Either the popular meaning of the term 'paternity test' was distorted by the above reply

You are aware that they use DNA for paternity tests, aren't you?

The DNA from anatomically modern humans (Cro-Magnon) 30,000 years ago demonstrates that they are the ancestors of modern Europeans in the same way that a DNA paternity test indicates paternity. What more do you want?

or it's actually saying 'Anyone of us might be a son or daughter of those Neanderthals' which is absurd.

If you had paid attention you would have understood that the same tests showed that no living modern human carries neanderthal mitochondria. This shows a DISCONTINUITY between neanderthals and modern humans.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-03-2011 2:47 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-04-2011 1:06 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 73 of 194 (603734)
02-07-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by goldenlightArchangel
02-04-2011 1:06 PM


Re: What differentiates human prototypes from alleged ancestry
regardless of the fact that no evidence was found that a skeleton of human prototype dated at 30,000 would have had a son or daughter

But it is very strong evidence of a genetic continuity between the Cro-Magnon population and the modern population.

What evidence do you have that there is no genetic continuity?


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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 75 of 194 (603783)
02-07-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by goldenlightArchangel
02-07-2011 3:17 PM


Re: What differentiates human prototypes from alleged ancestry
Acceptance – strong evidence - when you have the proof that 30,000 years ago there was Human life IN REPRODUCTION naturally and spontaneously [for example, the skeletons of two real relatives; father and son or a mother and her child] then that is the evidence of evolution.

So you are assuming that Cro-Magnon populations were infertile until shown otherwise?

Are you nuts?


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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 78 of 194 (603886)
02-08-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by goldenlightArchangel
02-08-2011 4:25 PM


Re: All that has a beginning –originated by the Earth– has an end
I guess I will go with my gut reaction. You are nuts.

This message is a reply to:
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