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Author Topic:   Thoughts on the Creator Conclusion
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 61 of 187 (604119)
02-10-2011 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICANT
02-10-2011 1:52 AM


Re: Tree
The seed has DNA which contains the information to produce that specific tree. Just like the blueprint is used to build a particular house.
No, this isn't accurate. Nothing in the DNA of a tree is anything like a "blueprint"; the arrangement of branches and leaves to the trunk, which is mostly what we consider the individual characteristic of a tree, isn't determined or represented in the DNA. For the most part that's a non-heritable, acquired characteristic. Like a peg-leg.
Part of the reason you see fictional "intelligence" in DNA is because, as usual, you persist in allowing yourself to be the one who knows the least about DNA. Why not start asking questions instead of making pronouncements?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 1:52 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:14 AM crashfrog has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 62 of 187 (604121)
02-10-2011 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 2:01 AM


Re: Initial Questions
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
It does, however, have something to do with your attempt to redefine the creator as "whatever caused the universe to exist", which is the subject that I was actually discussing.
I am not trying to redefine creator.
I was just making room for the very very hot very very dense very very small whatever it was that didn't exist at T=0 but did exist at T=10-43 to be the cause of there being something rather than nothing.
I have said and maintain if there was something that materalized and caused the universe to begin to exist it would be God, regardless of what type of entity it was.
But actually GR breaks down and the math does not give us existence at T=0.
Yet at T=10-43 we have existence.
Conclusion:
There is non existence at T=0.
The universe exists at T=10-43.
This required the universe to begin to exist from non existence.
Or an eternal existing creator was necessary for the universe to begin to exist.
Or maybe we are just brains in a jar in a lab that all this information has been programned into and we don't really exist.
Dr Adequate writes:
No; but I require him to have at least one human trait that of sentience, in order for him to qualify as God at all. If he doesn't have that, he isn't a him, he's an it.
Actually the creator would have to be the eternal existing one who was all knowledge and power.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 2:01 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 3:08 AM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 63 of 187 (604122)
02-10-2011 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
02-10-2011 2:44 AM


Re: Initial Questions
I have said and maintain if there was something that materalized and caused the universe to begin to exist it would be God, regardless of what type of entity it was.
And this is just as foolish as saying that anything that causes frost is Jack Frost no matter what kind of entity it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 2:44 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:29 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 64 of 187 (604124)
02-10-2011 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICANT
02-10-2011 1:52 AM


Re: Tree
The seed has DNA which contains the information to produce that specific tree. Just like the blueprint is used to build a particular house.
If intelligence was required to produce the blueprint to build the house so was intelligence required to build the blueprint in the seed to construct the tree.
But we know for a fact that the DNA of a tree is in fact produced without any intelligence whatsoever by another tree or trees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 1:52 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 65 of 187 (604125)
02-10-2011 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by crashfrog
02-10-2011 2:29 AM


Re: Tree
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
No, this isn't accurate. Nothing in the DNA of a tree is anything like a "blueprint"; the arrangement of branches and leaves to the trunk, which is mostly what we consider the individual characteristic of a tree, isn't determined or represented in the DNA.
At the core, however, tree seeds are similar and develop like other type of seed. Within the seed is an embryo plant, an undeveloped version of the tree that usually resembles a microscopic stem or root. This tiny embryo has the same DNA as its parent trees, all the encoded information that will direct its cells to reproduce in the correct fashion to make every part of the tree. Around the embryo is usually some type of starch or sugar food source. These surrounding food shell gives the seed a necessary burst of energy when it is first beginning to grow, allowing to quickly plant roots and grow several small leaves, enough for it to start creating energy on its own. This embryo-and-food combination is then covered by a seed coating.
Source
Poplar is the third plant to date to have its genome completely sequenced. The first, back in 2000, was a weed, Arabidopsis thaliana (which has 4 times less DNA than poplar). Rice was the second, in 2004.
Populus trichocarpa is one of the tallest broadleaf hardwood trees in the western U.S., native to the Pacific coast from San Diego to Alaska. The sequenced DNA was isolated from a specimen collected along the banks of the Nisqually River in Washington State. This species is already used in timber and paper industries. "Fifteen years from now, fully domesticated varieties of the tree, optimally tuned to grow faster and longer, better resist insects and disease and require less water and nutrients, could be growing like any other crop on tree farms spread across large regions of the United States", researchers said.
Scientists have to identify - amongst poplars' 45,500 genes - those responsible to its growth, to manage a selective breeding and genes manipulation to achieve desirable traits. The main goal is to create a variety to be used as a source of ethanol, which can be used as fuel. Currently, ethanol is more expensive and difficult to produce from wood than it is from crops like corn.
Source
The information can be changed to alter the growth of the tree.
Maybe you are right and nobody else knows what they are talking about.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 2:29 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 3:22 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 73 by Blue Jay, posted 02-10-2011 10:23 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 79 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2011 12:00 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 66 of 187 (604126)
02-10-2011 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 3:12 AM


Re: Tree
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
But we know for a fact that the DNA of a tree is in fact produced without any intelligence whatsoever by another tree or trees.
What does a seed producing a tree from its seed have to do with the intelligence required to create the information in the DNA in the first seed?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 3:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 4:08 AM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 67 of 187 (604127)
02-10-2011 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by ICANT
02-10-2011 3:14 AM


Re: Tree
Maybe you are right and nobody else knows what they are talking about.
Or maybe he is right and everyone who knows what they're talking about agrees with him.
Googling on the phrase DNA "not a blueprint" gets 28,000 hits, so he is hardly alone in his assertion.
The point is, perhaps, a subtle one, but it is worth bearing in mind. The DNA of a tree is a set of instructions for making a tree --- nowhere does it contain anything remotely resembling a description of what a tree looks like. It is, in a well-worn phrase "a recipe, not a blueprint".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:14 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 68 of 187 (604128)
02-10-2011 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 3:08 AM


Re: Initial Questions
Hi Dr,
Are you that dense?
Dr Adequate writes:
And this is just as foolish as saying that anything that causes frost is Jack Frost no matter what kind of entity it is.
How do you compare something being produced out of existing materal,
and
something being produced out of an absence of anything?
There is no comparison.
That is like comparing apples and oranges and concluding they are the same thing.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 3:08 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 4:19 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 69 of 187 (604129)
02-10-2011 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Tree
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
The DNA of a tree is a set of instructions for making a tree
Yes I agree.
A house blueprint is a set of instructions for making a house.
A automobile blueprint is a set of instructions for making a car.
A airplane blueprint is a set of instructions for making a airplane.
Conclusion:
The tree DNA contains a set of instructions for the making of the tree.
The house blueprint contains a set of instructions for the making of a house.
Sounds like the same thing to me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 3:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 4:14 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 02-10-2011 11:27 AM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 70 of 187 (604131)
02-10-2011 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ICANT
02-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Tree
What does a seed producing a tree from its seed have to do with the intelligence required to create the information in the DNA in the first seed?
Why should we think that there was any such intelligence?
Every time we see a seed being produced, it was produced by an unintelligent process of reproduction with variation (which is, naturally, subject to natural selection). This is very different from the process which produces (for example) a house. On what basis are we to infer that at some point a tree must have been produced in a manner like that by which a house is produced rather than in the manner in which a tree is produced?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:22 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 11:11 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 71 of 187 (604132)
02-10-2011 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
02-10-2011 3:38 AM


Re: Tree
A house blueprint is a set of instructions for making a house.
No it isn't. It's a diagram of what the house should look like when it's built. It contains no instructions whatsoever as to how this aim is to be achieved. From the blueprint alone, one wouldn't even know that it is necessary to build the ground floor before building the upstairs.
By contrast, DNA contains a set of instructions for constructing an organism but nothing remotely like a diagram or description of what the organism should look like when it's finished.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:38 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 11:38 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 154 by Parasomnium, posted 02-17-2011 6:55 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 72 of 187 (604133)
02-10-2011 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by ICANT
02-10-2011 3:29 AM


Re: Initial Questions
Are you that dense?
Apparently I am indeed so dense that you can't see my point. I am inclined to attribute my stupidity to you having been dropped on your head as a child.
How do you compare something being produced out of existing materal,
and
something being produced out of an absence of anything?
There are doubtless differences between the formation of frost and the formation of a universe.
However, this is irrelevant to my point, which I will repeat: it is as fatuous to identify whatever caused the universe as "God" as it is to identify whatever causes frost as "Jack Frost".
Your belief that the universe was created ex nihilo does not affect this point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:29 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 11:48 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 73 of 187 (604143)
02-10-2011 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by ICANT
02-10-2011 3:14 AM


Re: Tree
Hi, ICANT.
Let me clarify Crashfrog's point.
The above is an image of part of an aspen clone. All these trees have identical DNA, because they are all actually one single organism. However, you'll note that each tree differs from the others in terms of the number and location of branches, the pattern of bumps and twists in the trunk, and the timing of leaf yellowing in the autumn.
DNA does not encode these characteristics: rather, they develop in response to environmental factors. This gives the tree flexibility: it can still grow right side-up if the seed lands upside-down in the soil, and it can still grow with its leaves facing the sunlight even if the seed lands in the wrong orientation.
I hope this makes more sense now.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:14 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 11:52 AM Blue Jay has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 74 of 187 (604153)
02-10-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2011 4:08 AM


Re: Tree
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
Why should we think that there was any such intelligence?
Then you shouldn't mind sharing with me the source of the information in the DNA of the first seed then.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2011 4:08 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 75 of 187 (604155)
02-10-2011 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
02-10-2011 3:38 AM


Re: Tree
A house blueprint is a set of instructions for making a house.
A automobile blueprint is a set of instructions for making a car.
A airplane blueprint is a set of instructions for making a airplane.
All of which are different than DNA. If you throw a blueprint onto a pile of building materials does a house appear? No. If you throw DNA into a cell is something built from that DNA? Yes. Obviously, there is something very different between a blueprint and DNA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 3:38 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2011 12:06 PM Taq has replied

  
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