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Author | Topic: Interrogation of an Apostle | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
What practices are used by investigators who must sift through numerous eyewitness accounts of an event to sort out what happened and did not based on consistencies/inconsistencies in the accounts given? When considering whether or not a particular aspect of the incident did or did not occur, what value might consistent accounts add to support the incident's happening? What effect might inconsistent accounts have on the believability of the account?
One of the methods used by scholars who look through the New Testament in search of the 'historical Jesus' is what Robert Stein calls the Criterion of Multiple Attestation:
quote: quote: Ehrman gives the examples of John the Baptist encountering Jesus, Jesus' brothers, and Jesus' teaching in parablesthings multiply attested, and so more likely to be true. For this thread, I'd like to examine some of the techniques used in detecting false accounts given multiple different tellings, and then apply those techniques to the post-resurrection appearance accounts in the gospels and try to determine whether the gospel accounts are trustworthy evidence of a resurrection or not. For this purpose, I think we can ignore the 'empty tomb' story, and just stick to the appearances, which occur in Matt. 28:16—20, Luke 24:13—53, and John 20:1121.1 When we apply whatever lie-detecting tools we might have to the accounts of Jesus' post-resurrection appearances, what can we conclude about the veracity of the claims? And, if the claims are likely true, does this validate the resurrection account? If the claims are likely false, does this invalidate it? When we interrogate the apostles, do we find them lying or telling the truth? Jon__________ 1 Perhaps to this list we could also add the short and long endings of Mark, even though they don't appear to be original to his gospel. __________ Ehrman, B. (2004) The New Testament: a Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, 3rd ed. New York: Oxford UP. Stein, R. (1987) The Synoptic Problem: an Introduction. Michigan: Baker Books Edited by Jon, : subtitle, sources, etc. Edited by Jon, : clarity Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
You have not established that the witnesses did not confer with one another to get their story straight. ... How many witnesses can the Mormons produce for their beliefs? Do Catholic saints perform miracles? Ten’s of thousands or perhaps millions of Catholics can give witness. Are Asian beliefs more probable since they have more witnesses? Are protestant beliefs less probable as they have less? Just something to consider. ... Ultimately, that they build on each other is a huge hurdle to overcome in establishing they’re independent witnesses Did you read the passages this thread is supposed to be about?
Can you show that the accounts you are presenting are not heresy. Obviously they are; but that's all we've got to work with.
Can you establish chain of custody? No, but that's all we've got to work with.
You’re also failing to present your witnesses, nor have you established their identity. That's not relevant here; I'm more interested in what is said rather than in who is saying it. Afterall, the former is all we've got to work with.
Lastly, because you have not established chain of custody, and because you’re not able to present the actual evidence it not only is likely your evidence has been tampered with, but there is actual evidence that your evidence is tainted. What 'evidence'? All we've got are the accounts in the gospels; chain of evidence is irrelevant. The accounts aren't likely from first-hand witnesses, but their all we've got to work with.
If consistency is that important, how important is inconsistency? That was one of the big questions I raised in the OP; I was hoping we could figure it out with some good discussion. Jon Edited by Jon, : niceness... Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
We must remember that Luke is NOT an eye-witness account and Matthew is very unlikely to be. And you've hit on one of the ares where there are reasons to doubt John. Whether they were direct eyewitnesses or not, they pass off their accounts as at least originating with eyewitnesses (they are told from an eyewitness perspective), and since they are as close to eyewitnesses as we've access to, I don't think too much more can be made of that fact in line with the topic at hand.
We can tell that there are two rival traditions. In one the post-resurrection appearances took place in Galilee, while the other places them in Jerusalem. Matthew follows one line, Luke follows another and John appears to be trying to have it both ways. It is implausible that the author Matthew would forget about the miracles of Pentecost or that the story would be lost to him. Likewise it is implausible that the author of Luke would be so against appearances in Galilee if he believed in those stories. Okay, so are you saying that given the multiple accounts which do not agree, it is likely that the supposed event underlying these accounts is a fabrication?
And if Christians were disputing over two incompatible stories at the time when Matthew and Luke were written how can we trust either story ? When different witnesses testify to the same event, but fail to agree on even the most conspicuous details, should their accounts be regarded as untrustworthy? What does that let us say about the main event itself, the resurrection? Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
I don't believe that the unknown author of Matthew mentions his sources at all. But he presents his story from an eyewitness perspective; the matter in question is whether we can determine if his account (or any of the gospel accounts) represents a fabrication (either on his part or on the part of one of his sources) or whether it may be trustworthy (either because he saw it himself or copied it from a source that saw it). So once again, who says it isn't overly important; the issue is whether we can conclude a fabrication occurred at any point in the chain from witness to gospel writer regarding the resurrection appearances.
I said nothing about the origin of those traditions, although if there was an underlying event we cannot rely on it being much like either one (clearly it cannot closely resemble both !) I think it could resemble both; nothing prevents the resurrected Jesus from revealing himself to his disciples in several instances in several different places. Ignoring some of the minor contradictions that this would present, we must wonder what the likelihood is that the accounts given would not have any overlap supposing they describe a true eventthe resurrection of Jesus. Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
I'm short of time so I'll just say this and post a couple of links. The central point in both gospels and epistles is that Jesus was bodily resurrected. As Paul says, "if this isn't true then we are to be most pitied" or that essentially we are living a lie and wasting our time. And this is at the heart of the problem: they all agree that Jesus was resurrected, but aside from that, none of their stories are corroboratory (except, maybe John 20:19—20 and Luke 24:36—40, which may just be an instance of same-source borrowing). Imagine a man on trial for murder. His buddies decide to come up with the alibi that he was with them in the coffee shop when the murder took place. Upon being interrogated, however, the investigators discover that despite agreeing on the one facthe was in the coffee shop, they all present a different account of what they were doing and talking about. While it is possible that all of the things they describe may have taken place, what is the likelihood that none of their accounts would overlap on any of the details were their story true? And what does that tell us about the believability of the scenario this man's alibi proposes? (I can't get your links to load right now, but I will look at them later when I get some time!) Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
But you aren't dealing with the points I raised. If there was something so important as Pentecost, why would the author of Matthew omit it ? If there were appearances in Galilee why is the author of Luke so determined to deny them ? If there was something really important and impressive then why did the stories not stop with that ? Look at Mark.
quote: Does he ? In what way ? Yes; he is a narrator who relates the story. There are no 'and my sources tell me...' anywhere. Which means he is either copying it from a source that got it from a source, etc. that witnessed the events/fabricated the story; or, he himself has witnessed/fabricated the account. No matter which of these we assume, our methodology for determining the reliability of his account in light of the other gospels' accounts will be rather the same: we compare what is said in one account against what is said in another. Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
In any case of texts this old reporting on traditions that were likely oral before being written down, it is impossible to know whether the author is an eyewitness or just a transcriber/copier of reports available to him. Even when the author claims to have witnessed the event himself, we cannot be sure he actually did, or that his claim of witnessing is not just the result of a direct copy from another text.
Ultimately, we must look at the content of the text when judging itauthorship will only tell us so much (eyewitnesses, afterall, can lie as easily as anyone). And this is all the better since we'll never know the source, and worrying about it endlessly just gets us nowhere. In addition an account needn't be witnessed first hand to be true; non-primary sources may not be as accurate on the details, but providing they have attempted to remain faithful to the original (which we determine by looking at the text), then their accounts will be about as good as anyotherwise we couldn't say we know something after we read the newspaper! Finally, no matter the source, all we've got to work with is the text itself; so despite any reservations about relying on second-hand sources, there is nothing we can do about it. Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
There is an unusual commonality in the confusion his appearance caused in each case. Do you suppose this is good reason to think that people who reported seeing Jesus did not at first 'recognize' him? Perhaps even support the notion that they at least saw something?
I don't think we have the kind of material that lends itself easily to historical analysis through such things as multiple attestation. Our sources are slim indeed; but we use the same number of sources for drawing other conclusions which are probably not far off, for example, the issues Ehrman points out (from OP).
I'm sure, if Jesus had gained the local notoriety the stories suggest and could draw a crowd as suggested - that there were unscrupulous conmen who at least considered capitalising on people inclined to follow. We'd almost think such popularity might make it less likely that folk wouldn't recognize him wherever he wentespecially men who had previously spent nearly every second of their lives with him!
At best we can say that the doubt/confusion is an interesting issue, it would be interesting to see if there are any ideas as to why that was mentioned. That brings up another criterion often used in determining 'witness' reliability, which is the Criterion of Dissimilarity:
quote: So, might it be that the sightings of 'Jesus' really took place? Jon__________ Ehrman, B. (2004) The New Testament: a Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, 3rd ed. New York: Oxford UP. Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
The Criterion of dissimilarity only gets us to conclude that Jesus was executed, I think. Given he died - it is naturally in support of Christianity that a resurrection occurred. In this case we might say that sightings occurred, but this tells us as much about the post-death activities of the King of the Jews as the sightings of Elvis tell us about the King of Rock n Roll. Oh of course. I do not mean to suggest that Jesus was actually walking around after being resurrected; the texts don't seem the best support for that at all. However, what I think the sources definitely seem to point to is that there was a man (men?) going around claiming to be Jesus, and whom the apostles of the pre-death Jesus could not really recognize as Jesus. Strangely, even back then the reports were very difficult to believe, and many folk seemed to have trouble swallowing the claim that Jesus was actually resurrected. Perhaps this should tell us just how little evidence and few sightings there may have actually been!
If you have access to any NT Wright's work - I think he's probably the best source of pro-resurrection history (at least I've seen his name cited relatively often), do you have any idea how he supports the notion? Unfortunately I don't. But I'll be checking the libraries here to see what I can come up with! Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
Personally, I believe that the Apostles were sincere. I believe they were honest. One can be sincere and honest, and still flat-out wrong. We cannot know until we examine what they've said. Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
In a book I recently acquired, scholar Gary Wills lays out the following for an interpretation of the unrecognizable Jesus:
quote: Thus, Wills offers three different interpretations relating to the unrecognizable Jesus:
Granted, these interpretations are not all strictly compatible, but I don't think they are necessarily meant to be, as each one is drawn out with relation to the message delivered in an individual gospel. However, the part that interests me, for the purpose of this thread, is whether there may be any potential truth and/or value behind the interpretations offered here by Wills, and how we might find evidence to support them. How plausible does all this sound? Jon__________ Wills, G. (2008) What the Gospels Meant. New York: Penguin Group. Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr |
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Jon Inactive Member |
Do you have any specific lies or truths recorded in the texts you presented that you would like to discuss? If you do please present them for discussion. From the OP:
quote: The purpose of this thread is to look at the accounts given and apply lie-detecting techniques to them to determine if there is a detectable lie. My question to you: When you apply some of the techniques laid out in the OP, do you find the accounts likely to be true or likely to be false, and why? Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
Well, the library got a few of the Wright books in I requested; here is some of what he says on the matter regarding the resurrection and the unrecognizable Jesus:
quote: Wright, then, appears to put the emphasis of evidence for a resurrection not on the information contained in the text but in the social phenomena that followed shortly after Jesus' death: the continued belief in Jesus as Messiah, and the rise and spread of this belief as the Christian faith. On the accounts themselves, Wright goes on to say:
quote: quote: So, regarding Wright's opinions, perhaps we can go on to discuss whether a few of his explanations for the textual oddities1 actually work. One of the first ones I quote is the notion that the strange nature of the accounts results from 'the gospel writers ... trying to explain something for which they didn't have a precise vocabulary'. Does this fit? If we assume that there was a little something inexplicable about the body of the raised Jesus, is this enough to account for the strangeness of the accounts and perhaps even the inconsistency? The second one I'm interested in examining is Wright's claim that the resurrection accounts are 'like quick eye-witness sketches, with the details not even tidied up' as opposed to 'carefully drawn portraits'. Is it possible to explain away the oddities, vagueries, and initial lack of recognition by the apostles this way? And if it is possible, does it make sense to do so? Would we really see what we see in the text if the accounts were just 'sketches' with untidied details? I wish I had access to some more on-topic opinions by Wright; I looked over a selection of his books and noticed some that would be particularly relevant to this issue, so I will have to see if I can get my hands on them somehow. I hope this will do for now, though, and help to keep the discussion going! Jon__________ 1 In this case, not necessarily their apparent disagreement, but perhaps just their 'breathless and artless' form, as Wright puts it. __________ Wright, N.T. (2006) Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense. New York: HarperCollins. Wright, T. (1996) The Original Jesus: the Life and Vision of a Revolutionary. Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr |
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Jon Inactive Member |
The best evidence as to whether the Apostle's testimonies/writings are true is whether the Gospel of Christ they proclaimed becomes true in your life! Of course that's not evidence at alland if it were, it would only refute the truth of the apostles' writings. Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
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Jon Inactive Member |
In an old, worn book sitting tucked away on my shelves I found a take on the resurrection accounts by Alexander Maclaren, who, little did I know, was apparently quite prolific on these matters back in his day.
Granted that this thread seems to be dying, but I figured I would give a little bit of Maclaren's view for anyone who might still be following along.1
quote: This opinion seems very similar to Wright's, who attributed some of the oddities of the resurrection accounts to the shock and joy of the apostles (see Message 32). Whether these explanations are satisfactory or not in explaining the differences of the resurrection accounts cannot be certain, but I do believe I find the following explanations by Maclaren troubling and certainly without support:
quote: Here, Maclaren appears to simply discount the differences in the reports, with some belief that they can all be worked together to form a solid whole account. But this requires some pretty fancy interpretive gymnastics, as Maclaren shows:
quote: Say what!? Maclaren's reconciliation has our characters running in circlesdoing things two times or more. This raises the question of just how 'different' two or more accounts must be before they can be considered contradictory. Is it contradictory when the angel tells the women two different things? Is it a contradiction when the resurrected Jesus appears in secret to two disciples first in one account, but to Mary first in another? Furthermore, how many differences are needed before we can reasonably consider the accounts to be contradictory, and after which we cannot justifiably reconcile the accounts by simply merging all of their qualities? Afterall, the accounts are quite different; to get a sense of just how different, examine the parallel arrangement below of the discovery of the empty tomb:
Can all these differences be reconciled away? Is it honest of us as readers and interpreters to believe that the accounts, where different, represent only omissions by one another of the apostles? I don't think it is. To bring this back to one of the issues raised in the OP, how would an police investigator react to accounts as different as these? Suppose there is a man, Chris, suspected of murder. His buddies have gotten together and decided to serve as his alibi, all agreeing to testify that he was with them in the coffee shop when Chris's wife was murdered. Upon further questioning, however, the investigators realize that despite giving similar testimony as to Chris's whereabouts, his friends fail to give corroborating accounts regarding what they did at the coffee shop, what was said, where Chris was sitting, or what they were drinking/eating.
While the stories of Chris's buddies match up on the crucial big picture, is it not faulty reasoning to assume their differing on the details to be unimportant and inconsequential? Suppose we have other rather good evidence that Chris actually went home during his lunch break and was with his wife when she died, that he used his control to open the garage door, and used his personal code to disarm their home's alarm system. Gathering up all the details of the accounts, it is possible to build a technically non-contradictory picture, but it requires some strange assumptions; for example, we might have to assume that Chris drank four different coffee drinks during their one hour visit to the shop, that Chris and his buddies regularly got up to switch chairs before proceeding on to the next topic of conversation, etc. Worst of all, though, might be the fact that despite Chris's buddies' claims that 25 other people were at the coffee shop who witnessed him there, none of these other people are able to say with any certainty that they did see Chris, and many of them cannot even be found for questioning! What we would have is the same thing we have in the case of Jesus' resurrection: a lot of good evidence to the contrary (e.g., the fact that people aren't raised from the dead) against piddly and inconsistent witnessing of the resurrected Jesus. Does this really make for a solid case in favor of the resurrection? Moving on, Maclaren raises a couple if interesting points:
quote: Maclaren unfortunately doesn't attempt to address the issues he raises in this short paragraph, at least not as far as I could find in any of the surrounding chapter. Nevertheless, I think the issue of hallucinations is well worth looking into, especially as Maclaren seems to suggest that at least some of the disagreements may be underlain by excitement-induced hallucinations. It will be interesting to see what more Maclaren has to say when I read through the online versions of some of his books regarding the accounts given by the other apostles. I'll post some more if I find anything intriguing! Jon__________ 1 Maclaren's works, including the one quoted here, can be found at Project Gutenberg: Maclaren, Alexander, 1826—1910 __________ Maclaren, A. (1944) Expositions of Holy Scripture: St. Luke. Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Edited by Jon, : numbers Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr |
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