Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,426 Year: 3,683/9,624 Month: 554/974 Week: 167/276 Day: 7/34 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Entropy and the immutable law of death
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 61 of 83 (433820)
11-12-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
11-12-2007 5:34 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
This is getting nowhere. It doesn't seem like you have fully read my posts or fully understand it and it doesn't seem you know the definition of the terms system and process. This is going to be my last attempt.
-Evolution is not a system.
-Evolution is the process organism (system) undergoes.
-Combustion and decomposition are not systems; they do not have physical measurable quantities (ie temperature, pressure)
-Combustion and decomposition are processes.
If you take a look at my previous posts I have include quotes and reference links that clearly states these.
By the way, the ChemE in my sn stands for chemical engineering, and I am pretty familiar with systems and processes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 5:34 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 11:53 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 62 of 83 (433823)
11-12-2007 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ChemEbeaver
11-12-2007 11:34 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
This is getting nowhere.
Because you're not paying attention and not addressing my posts. Start paying attention, start addressing my posts, and that's how this discussion can move forward. So long as you're not paying attention to what I'm trying to tell you, discussion with you is impossible.
-Evolution is not a system.
Evolution is not a system.
-Evolution is the process organism (system) undergoes.
Let me just stop you right there. Evolution is not something individuals undergo. Evolution is what happens to populations as they are shaped by selection of individuals according to their traits.
Evolution is not a thermodynamic process, it is a description of changes that occur on populations of organisms (not to organisms, which do not evolve.)
Combustion and decomposition are not systems; they do not have physical measurable quantities (ie temperature, pressure)
I assure you that the combustion of a fuel such as ethyl alcohol does create measurable changes in temperature and pressure, because a combusting fuel is a thermodynamic system.
Decomposition is the same way - chemical changes that result in the movement of heat.
If you take a look at my previous posts I have include quotes and reference links that clearly states these.
Did you read them, ever? If so how could you ever come to the conclusion that evolution is a thermodynamic system?
By the way, the ChemE in my sn stands for chemical engineering
That's why I find it so incomprehensible that you're getting it all so completely wrong. How could you not know that combustion of a fuel is a thermodynamic system, when combustion is the textbook example of a thermodynamic system?
By the way, the "Crashfrog" in Crashfrog stands for "biochemistry", so believe it or not I know what I'm talking about, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-12-2007 11:34 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 12:30 AM crashfrog has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 63 of 83 (433827)
11-13-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by crashfrog
11-12-2007 11:53 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
you're not paying attention and not addressing my posts
what am I not addressing?
So your a chemist? Then you should know your claims should have references to back them up. I have not seen any from you. Try googling "combustion."
Here’s my references again; this time I've include more than just a quote.
To move an airplane or a model rocket through the air, we must use a propulsion system to generate thrust. Different types of aircraft use different types of propulsion devices, but all aircraft rely on some type of engine to generate power. Rocket engines, internal combustion, or piston engines, and jet engines all depend on the burning of fuel to produce power. Burning a fuel is called combustion, a chemical process that we study in middle or high school.
Because combustion is so important for aircraft and rocket propulsion, we will review the fundamentals. Combustion is a chemical process in which a substance reacts rapidly with oxygen and gives off heat. The original substance is called the fuel, and the source of oxygen is called the oxidizer. The fuel can be a solid, liquid, or gas, although for airplane propulsion the fuel is usually a liquid. The oxidizer, likewise, could be a solid, liquid, or gas, but is usually a gas (air) for airplanes. For model rockets, a solid fuel and oxidizer is used.
Combustion
Evolution as a process is composed of two parts:
1. An organism reproducing mechanism that provides variable organisms. Changes to the organism are largely random and effect future generations. They are made without regard to consequences to the organism.
2. A changing environment which screens organism changes. The environment provides stress on the variable organisms that selectively allows, through competition, certain changes to become dominant and certain others to be eliminated, without consideration for the future of the mechanism. That same process provides mechanism (organism) disintegration if a strong screening environment is not present. Evolution is a two-way process which does not always work to the long term advantage of the organism and in fact often becomes quite deadly to a given species and thereby eradicates it.
The evolutionary process is bidirectional in its effect. It may, depending on the environment, either improve a given characteristic or decay it. Since the first step in the process is largely random and most organisms are quite complex, almost all of the variations are harmful. A characteristic of a species advances if the environment is harsh, since most harmful variations to that characteristic will be eliminated through death and suffering at a rapid rate, leaving only the inconsequential and helpful changes in the lineage. If the environment is benign with respect to the capability of the species then the harmful changes are not eliminated and the species will degenerate to a point of balance with the environment.
Page not found - OneLife
Here’s the dictionary definition of evolution:
ev”o”lu”tion /‘vlu‘n or, especially Brit., ‘iv-/
-noun
1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.
2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.
3. Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.
6. a pattern formed by or as if by a series of movements: the evolutions of a figure skater.
7. an evolving or giving off of gas, heat, etc.
8. Mathematics. the extraction of a root from a quantity. Compare involution (def. 8).
9. a movement or one of a series of movements of troops, ships, etc., as for disposition in order of battle or in line on parade.
10. any similar movement, esp. in close order drill.
Evolution Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2007 11:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2007 9:15 AM ChemEbeaver has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 64 of 83 (433828)
11-13-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
09-21-2007 1:08 PM


Since one of the common complaints that creationists often use is to say that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics, and since often they have difficulty articulating how thermodynamics works, I thought I'd write up what I hope is a reasonable summary about thermo, starting from basic principles. I'll try to keep the equations to a minimum, but they will necessarily come up.
 
While all of this is just my description of it, it is based upon my physics textbooks: Fundamentals of Physics, Third Edition by Halliday and Resnick; Physics Parts 1 and 2, Third Edition by Halliday and Resnick; and University Physics, Seventh Edition, by Sears, Zemansky, and Young.
 
The first thing to recognize is that thermodynamics is about how heat moves. To point out the obvious, that's what "thermodynamics" means: "heat-motion." In order to study thermodynamics, we have to understand heat, and the first thing about heat is temperature.
 
This is what the Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics is about. Specifically, the Zeroth Law states that if two objects are in thermal equilibrium with a third object, then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. This may seem obvious: If A = B and B = C, then A = C, right? Well, not necessarily. Suppose I know you. And you know somebody else. Does that mean I know that somebody else? Not necessarily. It was only after the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics were codified and experimented upon that the Zeroth Law was developed (thus the name). It seemed to be so obvious but as just seen, it isn't necessarily so.
 
It is because of the Zeroth Law that we can even really discuss temperature. It allows us to measure it reliably: By putting a calibrated device against an object, we can get a reading. If we get that same reading when putting the device against something else, then we know that the two objects have the same temperature because of the Zeroth Law.
 
Temperature is measured in Kelvin. Please note that it is not "degrees Kelvin" but simply "Kelvin." There are lots of ways to measure temperature such as by noting the shape of a piece of metal, the electrical resistance in a wire, the pressure of a gas, and so on. The accepted standard is to use that last one. By putting a gas in a constant volume and measuring the pressure exerted by the gas, we can come up with a scale of temperature.
 
This leads us to the question of heat. Heat is not temperature, but it is closely related to temperature. We must be very careful not to confuse heat with temperature, however. For example, when we say that we've made something hotter, that's a reference to temperature, not heat. Heat is energy and is measured in Joules. Temperature, as noted above, is measured in Kelvin. If two objects have different temperatures, then heat will flow between them if they are put in contact with each other. The heat causes the change in temperature of the two bodies by flowing out of one object and into the other.
 
Not every object changes the same amount in temperature when a given amount of heat is applied to it. This difference in reaction is called "heat capacity." It can be defined as such:
 
Q = cm(Tf - Ti)
 
Q is the amount of heat added in Joules
 
m is the mass of the object in kilograms
 
Tf is the final temperature of the body
 
Ti is the initial temperature of the body
 
c is the "specific heat capacity" of the material the object is made of.
 
For example, if I add 100 J of heat energy to a kilogram brass, it will have a temperature difference of about 0.26 K:
 
100 J = 380 J/(kg · K) · 1 kg · (Tf - Ti)
 
(Tf - Ti) = 100/380 = 0.26 K
 
But if I add 100 J of heat energy to a kilogram of ice, it will have a temperature difference of about 0.04K...about one-sixth as much as brass.
 
Too, just because heat is added to a substance doesn't mean its temperature will rise. When you hit the phase points (solid/liquid, liquid/gas, gas/plasma), the heat added does not cause an increase in temperature but rather a change of phase. Again, each material has a different way of changing phase and the amount of energy needed to make it do so. Water, for example, is more difficult to make melt than silver. The way the molecules of water bind together in its crystalline structure is much more difficult to break than the way the atoms of silver bind together in its crystalline structure. In this case:
 
Q = Lm
 
L is the "heat of fusion" (the amount of heat required to make it change phase from solid to liquid) measured in kJ/kg
 
m is the mass of the object measured in kg
 
Suppose we have a kilogram of lead at room temperature (293 K) and want to melt it. How much heat do we need to add?
 
Well, the melting point of lead is 601 K and the specific heat capacity of lead is 128 J/(kg · K). First, we want to raise the temperature of the lead to its melting point. Using the above formula, we get:
 
Q = 128 J/(kg · K) · 1 kg · (601 K - 293 K) = 39.4 kJ
 
Next, we need to actually melt the lead. Lead has a "heat of fusion" of 23.2 kJ/kg. Thus, we have:
 
Q = 23.2 kJ/kg · 1 kg = 23.2 kJ
 
Thus, we need to come up with 39.4 kJ + 23.2 kJ = 62.6 kJ of heat in order to melt a kilogram of lead starting at room temperature.
 
This point is to show how heat and temperature are related, but are not the same thing.
 
Heat and work are also related. One of the things we know from chemistry is that if you increase the temperature of a gas, you increase the amount of pressure it exerts. We can imagine a cylinder that has a piston on top of it that is supported by trapped gas. For the sake of the experiment, no gas can escape the confines of the cylinder/piston, but the piston is free to move up and down in the cylinder. If we put some weight on the piston, it will compress the gas and by varying the amount of weight on the piston, we can control the pressure and the volume of the gas.
 
Suppose we decrease the amount of weight on the piston. The pressure of the gas inside will cause the piston to rise up a little, ds. How much work is done by this change?
 
Well, the work is force through a distance so the change in work is:
 
dW = F · ds
 
The amount of force is the amount of pressure pressed against the area of the piston: F = pA. Thus:
 
dW = pA · ds
 
But notice that A · ds is the volume increase caused by the piston moving up. Thus, A · ds is the change in volume that is caused and therefore:
 
dW = p (A · ds) = p dV
 
Integrating this, we get:
 
W = Integral p dV from the initial volume to the final volume.
 
But notice, by increasing the temperature of the gas, we can increase the pressure if we keep the volume of the gas constant. But if we decide to let the volume increase so as to keep the pressure constant (by keeping the weight on the piston constant), we can do work by adjusting the temperature of the gas. And since the temperature of the gas is adjusted by adding heat, we learn that heat can be turned into work.
 
Notice that by controlling the position of the piston and the temperature, the amount of heat and the amount of work are not always equal. If we add weight to the piston proportionally to the amount of heat that we add to the gas to increase the temperature, we end up not doing any work: The piston doesn't move and yet we've spent a lot of heat.
 
Similarly, if we remove weight from the piston, it will rise, but we haven't added any heat to the system. Work is done from the internal energy that the gas has rather than from any external source.
 
Or, we can have a combination of the two where we add heat to the gas and remove weight from the piston and then we'll get a different amount of work being done.
 
This leads us to the First Law of Thermodynamics. Essentially, it states that everything has to go somewhere. In any process, all the heat and all the work has to be taken into account and all the energy of the system must balance.
 
One of the things we discover through experimentation is that it doesn't matter how we go about futzing with the system. The amount of heat change and the amount of work done, sum to the same amount no matter how we change the temperature and volume. The "internal energy" of a system is defined:
 
delta-U = Q - W
 
delta-U is the change in internal energy of the system
 
Q is the heat added/subtracted from the system
 
W is the work done by/to the system.
 
There are some special things about this:
 
If there is absolutely no transfer of heat, then the only change in internal energy is done by the work that is done by the system or to the system. Think of the piston where all we did was remove weight. We didn't add any heat to the system. Any change of energy is from the gas:
 
delta-U = -W
 
Such a change is called "adiabatic."
 
Notice that this does not mean the temperature of the gas does not change. It does:  When a gas expands adiabatically, it cools down. But that change in temperature is not lost to the environment. It is the mere fact that the volume changed that caused the change in temperature.
 
If the gas is kept at the same temperature but we wish to have a change in work by either compressing it or letting it expand, we will have to add or remove heat from the gas in order to maintain equilibrium. If we compress the gas, it will increase in temperature so we will need to remove heat. If we expand the gas, it will decrease in temperature so we will need to add heat.
 
Such a process is called "isothermal."
 
Suppose that we do a whole bunch of things to the gas but at the end, we're back where we started. This is a cyclical process and at the end, the internal energy of the gas remains the same:
 
Q = W
 
It's this last part that we start getting into the Second Law of Thermodynamics. In a perfect engine, heat can be converted entirely into work. In reality, however, no engine can ever do this. There is always some heat lost in the process. The gas is touching the cylinder and thus there will be some heat exchange between the gas and the cylinder. If we add heat to the gas, not all of it can be used to move the piston.
 
The Second Law states that there is no process by which heat can be converted entirely into work. In an engine, we have a reservoir at a certain temperature and another reservoir at a lower temperature. We can extract heat energy from the high-temperature reservoir and transfer it to the low-temperature reservoir. This can be done simply by letting the two touch each other. But, we can insert a device between the two that can use that heat to do work such as the piston device described above.
 
From the First Law, we know that all the energy has to add up. Thus, we know that we can determine the amount of work done by an engine by examining the amount of heat taken out of the high-temperature reservoir and comparing it to the amount of heat delivered to the low-temperature reservoir. The difference must necessarily be the amount of work done:
 
|W| = |Qh| - |Qc|
 
|W| is the absolute value of the amount of work done (positive for an engine, negative for a refrigerator)
 
|Qh| is the absolute value of the amount of heat taken from the high-temperature reservoir (negative for an engine, positive for a refrigerator)
 
|Qc| is the absolute value of the amount of heat given to the low-temperature reservoir (positive for an engine, negative for a refrigerator)
 
Notice that I'm talking about a refrigerator. A refrigerator is essentially an engine that runs in reverse. That is, an engine takes heat from a high-temperature reservoir and sends it to a low-temperature reservoir, in the process doing work. A refrigerator, on the other hand, takes work and in the process transfers heat from a low-temperature reservoir to a high-temperature reservoir.
 
What the Second Law states is that you can't have that heat transfer from the low to the high without an input of work. While it is quite possible (and very simple) to have heat go from the high to the low, doing the reverse requires the input of work.
 
Thus, the Second Law can be stated in two, equivalent ways:
 
1) Heat can not be converted entirely into work: There are no perfect engines.
 
2) Work must be used to transfer heat from a lower temperature to a higher temperature: There are no perfect refrigerators.
 
Notice what this means. Suppose we have a regular refrigerator. Thus, it requires an input of work to move the heat. But if there were a perfect engine, then we could transfer all that heat into work to run the refrigerator. The end result would be the transfer of heat from the low to the high without any expenditure of work: The heat from the hot is converted entirely into work and is then given right back to the high by the refrigerator, along with some extra heat pulled from the low.
 
One of the things we get out of the Second Law is that some energy cannot be used for work. One way of visualizing this is that if we have two bodies at different temperature, we can pull heat from the high and send it to the low, doing some work in the process. But eventually, the high and the low will be at the same temperature and we won't be able to pull any more heat out of the high. Note, this does not mean that the high has been brought to absolute zero temperature. Instead, it means that the engine works off the temperature differential of the two reservoirs. If they are at the same temperature, no reaction can take place.
 
If, however, we were to take these bodies and put them into a system with a third body that is not at the same temperature, we can do work by pulling it out of the one that is at a higher temperature and sending it to the lower one until, once again, we are at thermal equilibrium.
 
One measure of this inability to do work is called "entropy." Contrary to what people may tell you, it has nothing to do with disorder. While the idea of disorder is a convenient metaphor for entropy, we must remember that it is a metaphor. Entropy has to do with heat and how you can't do any work at a certain temperature.
 
First, let us examine engines. Let's look at a specific type of engine called a Carnot engine. It consists of an isothermal expansion followed by an adiabatic expansion. Then, there is an isothermal compression followed by an adiabatic compression to the same state we were in at the start.
 
Notice that for the first step, we have a change in heat but no change in temperature. From our discussion above, this means that the internal energy of the system remains constant and the amount of heat is equal to the amount of work. From the kinetic theory of gases, we know that the amount of work done by an ideal gas is related to the change in volume:
 
|Qh| = |Wh| = nRThln(Vb/Va)
 
n is the number of moles of gas
 
R is the ideal gas constant
 
Th is the temperature at which the isothermal expansion takes place
 
Vb is the final volume
 
Va is the original volume
 
Notice that this will be the same for the isothermal compression:
 
|Qc| = |Wc| = nRTcln(Vc/Vd)
 
So this takes care of the heat changes in the isothermal steps.
 
If we divide these two, we get:
 
|Qh|/|Qc| = [Thln(Vb/Va)]/[Tcln(Vc/Vd)]
 
Again, from the kinetic theory of gases, we know that an adiabatic expansion between two temperatures has the same ratio of volume as an adiabatic compression between those same two temperatures. That is:
 
Vb/Va = Vc/Vd
 
Therefore, we can say:
 
|Qh|/|Qc| = Th/Tc
 
We can re-arrange this:
 
|Qh|/Th = |Qc|/Tc
 
Since this is a cyclic engine, Qh and Qc have opposite sign, so we can drop the absolute value signs and again re-arrange:
 
Qh/Th + Qc/Tc = 0
 
If we extend this process through a great number of adiabatic and isothermal steps, we get:
 
Sum Q/T = 0
 
And if we take the number of steps to infinity, creating a smooth process:
 
Integral dQ/T = 0
 
One of the things we have learned from the study of temperature and internal energy is that they are properties of the system. That is, a system has a set amount of internal energy and a temperature. Notice in this cyclic process, we have a variable that returns to zero when we come back to the original state. Therefore, this property must be akin to internal energy or temperature: A state variable.
 
We call this state variable "entropy":
 
dS = dQ/T
 
Notice the units on entropy: Joules/Kelvin. This makes sense given our previous understanding about the Second Law. The Second Law indicates that some energy is always lost in a process. Energy is measured in Joules. And the process takes place at a temperature. Thus, we are not surprised to find that entropy is measured in Joules/Kelvin. For every Kelvin of temperature change, some heat energy is lost.
 
Suppose we have a kilogram of ice melting to water. What is the change in entropy?
 
Swater - Sice = Integral dQ/T = 1/T · Integral dQ = Q/T
 
The heat required to melt the ice is:
 
Q = mL = 1 kg · 333 kJ/kg = 333 kJ
 
Thus:
 
Swater - Sice = Q/T = 333 kJ/273 K = 1220 J/K
 
And notice that this heat has to come from somewhere (First Law). Therefore, the entropy change of the environment is equal and opposite to what happened to the ice: -1220 J/K.
 
Given this definition of entropy, we can restate the Second Law as follows:
 
In any process that takes place in a closed system, the entropy of the entire system cannot decrease but must either increase or remain the same.
 
Notice that in the process of melting the ice, the total entropy remained the same for the entire system. We have not violated the Second Law. While it is true that this was a reversible process and real processes contain irreversible components, there is no violation. What we have described is the lower limit: The entropy remains the same. With irreversible processes, the entropy will increase, even if only slightly.
 
And finally, notice that at no point during this discussion did the concepts of "order" or "disorder" or "complexity" or "information" come up. Once again, that is because thermodynamics isn't about such things. It is about the movement of heat. It is about energy.
 
The second law of thermodynamics states that for a closed system, the change in entropy must always be non-negative.  But since a great deal of reactions do not take place in a closed system, what do we do?
 
For any reaction, there is the system in which the reaction takes place and the surroundings of the system.  Thus:
 
delta-Stotal = delta-Ssys + delta-Ssurr
 
This means that the change in entropy of the system might be negative so long as the change in entropy of the surroundings are sufficiently positive to have a non-negative result.  Or conversely, the change in entropy of the surroundings may be negative so long as the change in entropy of the system is sufficiently positive to have a non-negative result:
 
delta-Stotal = delta-Ssys + delta-Ssurr > 0
 
There is another variable in thermodynamics called "enthalpy."  Conceptually, enthalpy is the opposite of entropy.  Whereas entropy is the amount of heat unavailable to do work, enthalpy is the heat that is available.  Entropy is commonly given the variable S while enthalpy is commonly given the variable H.
 
Suppose our reaction is taking place at constant temperature and pressure.  Then the energy absorbed by the system has to come from somewhere.  And you guessed it, it comes from the surroundings:
 
qsurr = - delta-Hsys
 
As we'll recall, q is the variable associated with heat energy.  The above is the first law of thermodynamics.  Notice that the enthalpy change is opposite in sign from the heat used.  If the surroundings gain heat, then the system loses it.  If the surroundings lose heat, then the system gains it.
 
Now, the change in entropy of the surroundings is a measure of the heat change at that temperature:
 
delta-Ssurr = qsurr/T
 
Since qsurr is equal to - delta-Hsys, we can substitute:
 
delta-Ssurr = qsurr/T = - delta-Hsys/T
 
Substituting the above into the equation describing total entropy, we have:
 
delta-Ssys - delta-Hsys/T > 0
 
Now, all we have to do is some mathematical re-arranging:
 
T * delta-Ssys - delta-Hsys > 0 (multiply both sides by T)
-(delta-Hsys - T * delta-Ssys) > 0 (factor out the -1 and rearrange terms)
delta-Hsys - T * delta-Ssys < 0 (negation flips inequalities)
 
Now, since H, T, and S are all state functions, this equation of state functions must also be a state function.  We call this result "free energy" and give it the variable G after Josiah Willard Gibbs who developed much of modern physical chemistry.
 
So long as G < 0, the reaction is spontaneous.  If G > 0, then the reverse reaction is spontaneous.  If G = 0, then the system is at equilibrium.  This does not mean that no reaction is occurring.  It means that no net reaction is occurring...for every forward reaction, a reverse reaction takes place.
 
For example, if you take a glass ball that is half-filled with liquid water, the empty space will fill with water vapor.  The system is then at equilibrium:  Molecules of water still break free from the liquid water to become gaseous, but in the process a molecule of gaseous water is captured by the liquid.  The system is at equilibrium.
 
But notice what this means:  What drives a reaction is a function of the energy available, the energy lost, and the temperature at which it takes place.
 
If there is a lot of energy available but the temperature is low, then even with a positive change in entropy, the reaction still won't happen if that entropy change isn't large enough.
 
Similarly, you can have a very large decrease in entropy and still have a spontaneous reaction so long as the change in enthalpy is sufficiently negative to counteract.
 
As an example:  Is the reaction 2NO2(g) <-> N2O4(g) spontaneous at 298.15K?
 
First, calculate the enthalpy of the reaction:
 
delta-H0 = delta-H0f(N2O4, g) - 2delta-H0f(NO2, g) = 9.16 kJ - 2(33.2 kJ) = -57.2 kJ
 
Similarly:
 
delta-S0 = delta-S0N2O4 - 2S0NO2 = 304.2 - 2(239.9) = -175.6 J/K
 
Therefore:
 
delta-G0 = -57.2 kJ - (298.15 K)(-175.6e-3 kJ/K) = -4.8 kJ
 
Therefore, the reaction is spontaneous to the right.  Notice that this happens even though there is a negative entropy change.  That is because the entropy change is small enough that the negative enthalpy change overpowers it.
 
The idea that every reaction everywhere always has to have a positive entropy change in order to be spontaneous is simply false.  You can have negative entropy changes and still be spontaneous.  It depends upon the amount of energy available and the temperature at which the reaction takes place.
Now, that is the definition of "entropy." This idea that entropy is a measure of "disorder" is simply false. The concept of "disorder" is nothing more than a metaphor to help us understand the processes of what is going on.
quote:
You can't just blast sunlight on the earth and expect life to proliferate.
Why not? Is there some reason why sunlight cannot provide energy of reaction? It's how plants live, after all.
quote:
If that were the case, then all of the planets in the solar system would be inhabited with life. Clearly that is not the case.
And you can't think of a single reason why the earth is different from other planets other than god?
quote:
There first must exist some mechanism which converts raw energy in to useful energy.
Incorrect. Mere existence means that you can use energy. There does not need to be a "mechanism." Existence is mechanism enough.
Or are you saying that physics and chemistry need god? Ooh! It looks like we're back to the question that never gets answered!
Is there anything that happens on its own or is god required for everything?
quote:
For example: Sunlight blasts our roofs all of the time. The introduction of that energy certainly isn't improving the roof, now is it?
What is this word "improve" and what does it mean? I'm sorry, but science doesn't understand "improve." That's a perceptual, subjective determinant.
quote:
The big question is, why?
Not because of entropy. Nothing dies of entropy. Then entropy of an organism recently dead is pretty much the same as it was moments before when it was alive.
No, things die because the chemical reactions that are used to keep it alive have stopped. That's because no chemical reaction is perfect every time.
quote:
One side is arguing about thermodynamic entropy, while the other side is arguing about the other kind of entropy which stipulates that all systems tend towards disorder.
Incorrect.
One side is arguing about entropy while the other side is wondering why you're bring up entropy (and a fundamentally flawed, fantasy version of it at that) in the first place.
Things don't die because of entropy. Entropy gives life. You couldn't live if it weren't for entropy.
quote:
Why then is their not a specific name for it?
Because it doesn't exist...?
Nah, couldn't be that.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-21-2007 1:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 2:41 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 65 of 83 (433833)
11-13-2007 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by ChemEbeaver
11-12-2007 4:55 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
I was saying that living organisms ARE systems, and therefore CAN undergo change in entropy.
Which nobody is disputing. You said 'A Process is a naturally occurring or designed sequence of changes of properties or attributes of an object or system' and that therefore evolution is a process. A process happens to a system, not a process happens to a population of systems over time.
One living organism is a system - thus a process can occur. Many living organisms is not a system. Since individuals do not evolve, a population of evolving species is not undergoing a process. As you linked to wiki:
Process (science), a method or event that results in a transformation in a physical or biological object, a substance or an organism.
You'll note how a population (the thing that evolves) is not included.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-12-2007 4:55 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 3:15 PM Modulous has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 66 of 83 (433859)
11-13-2007 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ChemEbeaver
11-13-2007 12:30 AM


Re: misconception of entropy
what am I not addressing?
Any of my points. Specifically, the fact that evolution can neither be described as the movement of heat nor as the use of energy to do work, which means that it is not a thermodynamic system.
It's not a closed system, it's not an open system. It's not a system of any kind. It's a description of what happens to populations of organisms. That's why the Second Law doesn't apply to evolution.
Why is that point so difficult for you to address?
Then you should know your claims should have references to back them up. I have not seen any from you. Try googling "combustion."
I don't need to Google when I have the textbooks right here.
You know, the ones they use in those classes you apparently missed? The ones where they describe the activation energy and net enthalpy change when ethyl alcohol (for instance) is burned in the presence of oxygen to produce CO2 gas?
You know, because it's a thermodynamic system.
Evolution as a process
But it is not a thermodynamic one. Why is that so difficult for you to understand when I've proved that it is not, over and over again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 12:30 AM ChemEbeaver has not replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 67 of 83 (433904)
11-13-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rrhain
11-13-2007 12:38 AM


Good job on a thorough explanation of the laws of thermodynamic Rrhain.
But I do not agree that entropy is not a measure of disorder. From a physics/engineering point of view it might not seem like it is, but from a chemistry point of view "disorder" is very important to entropy.
quote from Rrhain:
It depends upon the amount of energy available and the temperature at which the reaction takes place
Entropy also depends on the state of matter and the amount of molecules in the reactant and product.
Entropy increases by:
-going from solid -> liquid -> gas
-increasing in # of moles (ie 1 mole -> 2 moles)
Take water decomposing into hydrogen and oxygen gas:
H2O -> H2(g) + 1/2 O2(g)
This reaction would increase in entropy since liq->gas and 1 molecule->3/2 molecules.
However, this reaction is not spontaneous since:
-the energy required to break the H-O bond is much greater than what is available at room temperature
-water is at a much lower energy level (more stable) than H2 and O2
Using the combined law of thermodynamics:
dG = dH - TdS
the (+)increase in enthalpy is much greater than the (-)increase in entropy, making dG to be (+) and the reaction to not be spontaneous.
Contrary to its name, thermodynamics is more than about "heat" as heat is only one aspect of it. Thermodynamics is about energy. Molecules seek the most stable configuration at the lowest energy states which is why they favor disorder over order.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Rrhain, posted 11-13-2007 12:38 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2007 2:53 PM ChemEbeaver has replied
 Message 76 by Rrhain, posted 11-13-2007 11:10 PM ChemEbeaver has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 68 of 83 (433907)
11-13-2007 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ChemEbeaver
11-13-2007 2:41 PM


-the energy required to break the H-O bond is much greater than what is available at room temperature
Do they maybe teach two different kinds of chemistry, one kind for chemgineers and one kind for biochemists?
Because the H-O bond actually does break at room temperature, spontaneously, which is why pure water at 25 degrees C contains both hydronium ions (H3O+) and hydroxide ions (OH-), the H-O bond is broken, rarely, by the available heat at room temperature, in a process called "self-ionization."
(The concentration of hydronium to hydroxide in pure water at 25 deg. C can be given by the expression 1.0x10-14 = [H3O+][OH-] and that -14 exponent is the basis for the pH scale, on which most acids and basis fall within a range of 1-14 and pure water is pH 7.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 2:41 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 3:45 PM crashfrog has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 69 of 83 (433912)
11-13-2007 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Modulous
11-13-2007 2:23 AM


Re: misconception of entropy
A process happens to a system, not a process happens to a population of systems over time
I disagree with that statement. I think a population can go though a process. And time is always included in a process (since nothing can change instantaneously).
But the definition of process is besides my point (have been a lot of sidetracking). My point is everything (even in nature) must obey the laws of thermodynamics and you can use chemistry to explain.
Here's a little proof I came up with:
-Everything in nature must obey the laws of thermodynamics.
-Everything changing in nature must obey the laws of thermodynamics.
-Evolution is a process of change in nature.
Therefore -> everything changing in nature must obey the laws of thermodynamics.
From a predator using energy to catch a prey, to the Krebs cycle breaking glucose to convert ADP to ATP, cell reproduction with mitosis, to DNA replication. All of these can be calculated and explained by chemistry and the laws of thermodynamics. Since evolution (can) involve these processes (there’s much more) you can take a step back and see the big picture that entropy of evolution can be calculated and that it must obey the law of thermodynamics.
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Modulous, posted 11-13-2007 2:23 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Modulous, posted 11-13-2007 3:31 PM ChemEbeaver has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 70 of 83 (433915)
11-13-2007 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ChemEbeaver
11-13-2007 3:15 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
But the definition of process is besides my point (have been a lot of sidetracking). My point is everything (even in nature) must obey the laws of thermodynamics and you can use chemistry to explain.
All reactions within biology must obey the laws of thermodynamics, nobody denies that. Evolution is just a description of heritable traits within populations, not a sequence of chemical reactions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 3:15 PM ChemEbeaver has not replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 71 of 83 (433917)
11-13-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by crashfrog
11-13-2007 2:53 PM


quote from crashfrog:
H-O bond actually does break at room temperature, spontaneously, which is why pure water at 25 degrees C contains both hydronium ions (H3O+) and hydroxide ions (OH-)
H-O bonds do not break because of the energy in room temperature; there are other reasons for that, otherwise there would be a higher concentration of hydronium ions and hydroxide ions. Do a calculations for
2 H2O + H2 -> 2 H3O+ + 2 e-
and 2 H2O + 2 e- -> 2 OH- + H2
at 25oC and you'll see it's not spontaneous.
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : math calc error (2 electrons not 1)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2007 2:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 11-13-2007 4:01 PM ChemEbeaver has replied
 Message 75 by crashfrog, posted 11-13-2007 4:45 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 83 (433923)
11-13-2007 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ChemEbeaver
11-13-2007 3:45 PM


ChemEbeaver writes:
2 H2O + H2 -> 2 H3O+ + 2 e-
Since when do you have gaseous hydrogen in water at room temperature?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 3:45 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 4:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 73 of 83 (433925)
11-13-2007 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
11-13-2007 4:01 PM


quote from Ringo:
Since when do you have gaseous hydrogen in water at room temperature?
Always, its part of the atmosphere and although it’s not very soluble in water, there are still a few molecules. This goes for the other component of air: oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, argon, etc. (oxygen most soluble).
Edited by ChemEbeaver, : correction

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 11-13-2007 4:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-13-2007 4:31 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 74 of 83 (433929)
11-13-2007 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ChemEbeaver
11-13-2007 4:14 PM


So you're seriously suggesting that that reaction is the source of hydronium ions in water? I'd ask you for references if it was remotely on topic.
But it isn't. The topic is about entropy as it relates to death - i.e entropy (if there is such a thing) at the organism level, not the molecular level. I doubt that calculations of Gibbs Free Energy have much relevance.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 4:14 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-14-2007 1:16 AM ringo has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 75 of 83 (433933)
11-13-2007 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ChemEbeaver
11-13-2007 3:45 PM


H-O bonds do not break because of the energy in room temperature; there are other reasons for that, otherwise there would be a higher concentration of hydronium ions and hydroxide ions.
At higher room temperatures than 25 deg. C, there are greater concentrations of both ions, which proves you wrong.
Temperature is a statistical property, which means that, in any substance at a certain temperature, some molecules of it have greater kinetic energy than average, and some have less than average. Arrhenius proved this, and it's why most chemical reactions display a continuous relationship between temperature and rate, rather than the discontinuous relationship one would expect from the examination of activation energies alone.
Hell, I have the lab notes to prove it. Don't they teach chem engineers any chemistry at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-13-2007 3:45 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-14-2007 2:04 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024