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Author Topic:   Inductive Atheism
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 536 (604359)
02-11-2011 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
02-11-2011 8:57 AM


Re: Inductive Atheism
I'm having difficulty understanding how you plan this thread to be different from your other posts and threads in which you bring up the topic of supernatural concepts being derived from the human imagination.
What do you hope to discuss in this thread that you and others have not discussed ad nauseam on the forums already?
I'm also not sure how any type of scientific methodology is in any way applicable to the area of human imagination.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : grammar

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2011 8:57 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2011 1:50 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 02-12-2011 4:46 PM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 536 (604493)
02-12-2011 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Straggler
02-12-2011 4:46 PM


Science and Induction at the End of the Line
The issue is not the origin of the God concept; I think it can be safely agreed upon by most that if there is a supernatural God whose interaction with this world cannot be sensed, then the origin of any concept related to that God can indeed come from nowhere other than the human imagination.
However, just because this concept is imaginedand all the evidence tells us it isthe object of this concept, God, is not automatically discounted from actually existing. I have not read much of RAZD's posts, but what I gather from the few I've read along with the replies made to them by others is that this is one of the essentials behind his argument.
Science and induction won't help us here.
Scientifically and inductively there is no evidence for any God;
Scientifically and inductively there is plenty evidence to conclude that all God concepts are made up;
Scientifically and inductively none of this tells us anything about the possible reality of any of the Gods in these concepts;
Science and induction are simply not suited to addressing these issues.
But we've had this conversation before, you and I, and nothing came of it; I think having it again won't change that.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 02-12-2011 4:46 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 02-12-2011 5:59 PM Jon has replied
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 02-13-2011 5:23 AM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 536 (604504)
02-12-2011 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
02-12-2011 5:59 PM


Re: Science and Induction at the End of the Line
Looks like you are in agreement. Nobody is making the claim that no god can exist...
Like I said, I've not really followed any of the RAZD great debates, and have also not followed this thread. I guess I am not entirely sure of what the disagreement is between the parties involved.
Forgive me if I've strayed from the topic.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 02-12-2011 5:59 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 536 (605742)
02-21-2011 9:46 PM


Impressive
Such stamina...
Several pages in and still the mental masturbation continues.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by bluegenes, posted 02-21-2011 11:24 PM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 536 (608936)
03-15-2011 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Straggler
03-08-2011 2:37 PM


Re: Do you have no conceptual idea of what it is you believe exists?
The only known source of supernatural concepts is human imagination. The same cannot be said of tree concepts. Because there is another known source of tree concepts. Namely the demonstrable existence of real trees. Do you now understand the difference? Do you now understand why the inductively derived tentative theory that ALL supernatural concepts are derived from the only known source is a strong and thus far unfalsified theory?
Splitting hairs only makes the head more fuzzy.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 03-08-2011 2:37 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Straggler, posted 03-15-2011 1:45 PM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 536 (608937)
03-15-2011 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Straggler
03-09-2011 3:13 AM


Re: Merit In The Theory
If Jesus pops up and starts the whole armeggadon thing, raising people from the dead and whatnot, even the most ardent athest would eventually have to be considered somewhat churlish to sit there saying "I am sure that there is a perfectly good scientific material explanation for this". At that point bluegenes theory could be considered falsified and atheists should have the decency to admit they were wrong.
How would we know it were Jesus?

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2011 3:13 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Straggler, posted 03-15-2011 1:44 PM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 536 (608956)
03-15-2011 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Straggler
03-15-2011 1:44 PM


Re: Merit In The Theory
By virtue of him really doing the things that the concept we know as Jesus does. Returning as prophesied, raising the dead, inducing Armegeddon.... Surely you know the sort of thing?
Okay, fair enough. But then what would that have to do with God?
Then I suggest you invest in some conditioner.
Your point.........?
Your separation of concepts into such categories as the ones into which you've separated them is entirely arbitrary, relative to your own belief system, and completely irrelevant to whether some things can or cannot be investigated through scientific methodology. It serves only to pile more muck into the water rather than attempt to make things clearer.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Straggler, posted 03-15-2011 1:44 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Straggler, posted 03-16-2011 5:39 PM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 536 (609013)
03-15-2011 10:02 PM


Dictionary Game
What's the joy in playing the dictionary games? Certainly there are better things to discuss on this topic than meaningless word meanings...
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2011 9:25 AM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 536 (609142)
03-16-2011 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Straggler
03-16-2011 5:39 PM


Re: Merit In The Theory
Wouldn't that question be better aimed at Christians?
Who cares about them? You made the claim that: 'If Jesus pops up and starts the whole armeggadon thing, raising people from the dead and whatnot, even the most ardent athest would eventually have to be considered somewhat churlish to sit there saying "I am sure that there is a perfectly good scientific material explanation for this". At that point bluegenes theory could be considered falsified and atheists should have the decency to admit they were wrong.'
You seem to think that some dude grave-hopping around town bringing folk back to life is evidence of God.
Why?
Other than the fact that you don't like it what exactly is your complaint here? Define the supernatural being you believe in and then we'll discuss the evidence for and against as it pertains to that specific concept.
Or would that be a little too unambiguous for your liking?
You've unfortunately completely missed the point.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : ?

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Straggler, posted 03-16-2011 5:39 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Straggler, posted 03-17-2011 7:09 AM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 536 (609206)
03-17-2011 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Straggler
03-17-2011 7:09 AM


Let the Party be Pooped
I think that evidence of the Christian concept of a supernatural Jesus actually existing would be evidence falsifying a theory that predicts that all such concepts are sourced from human imagination.
Of course that's not what you said; what you said was: 'atheists should have the decency to admit they were wrong.'
So again, why do you think some grave-hoppin', corpse-raisin', hootin'-of-a-good-time man has anything to do with God?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Straggler, posted 03-17-2011 7:09 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Modulous, posted 03-17-2011 3:03 PM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 536 (609274)
03-17-2011 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Modulous
03-17-2011 3:03 PM


Re: Armageddon outta here (hah!)
Are you asking what has the return of God, the descent of the kingdom of God to earth from the heavens and God's final judgement of mankind has to do with God?
Nope; was talking about Jesus, not God. Jesus has nothing to do with God, obviously.
Did you forget the part where Straggler mentioned Armageddon?
I'm not sure what Armageddon has to do with God...
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Modulous, posted 03-17-2011 3:03 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2011 5:20 AM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 536 (609309)
03-18-2011 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Modulous
03-18-2011 5:20 AM


Re: Armageddon outta here (hah!)
So it appears that you really don't think that god's final judgement over all of mankind as the kingdom of god descends from heaven and god made flesh bodily resurrects humanity might constitute a scenario which could pass as having some relation to a thing called god.
I am not even sure how we would know what such a creature was. Some of those silly Christians might call it God, but they'd likely be as wrong as they've always been when they've attributed inexplicable events to divine interventionsplagues, lightning, eclipses, etc. I wouldn't trust their judgements or their books half as far as I could throw them. Would you?
Since, by the nature of your latest replies, it is evident you are being as elusive as you are obtuse - the sensible course of action is to leave it having simply repeated my point in a sufficiently sharp manner.
But maybe you will feel like having an actual sensible discussion later on, which might be nice. I'll know that day is come when you present a defence for your position rather than hiding behind short content free posts...maybe even tying it to the original point of debate.
Well, simply put, both you and Straggler seem to have bought into the silly Christian God concept, which makes no sense to me as you're both atheists. Just cause men in robes (dresses?) and an old book say it's God doesn't make it so. If, as Straggler says, the events of an Armageddon (which sounds nothing like 'I'm a-gettin'' to Americans, by the way ) should turn atheists from their ranks, then I'd say they weren't much for atheistsprobably more like irrational agnostics doubtful of their own agnosticism.
I'm fairly sure I actually get where you are heading, but at least give us the courtesy of reading our posts, comprehending them and responding in a way that isn't like a 1st yr philosophy student that thinks they are being...clever.
Cleverness has nothing to do with it, sir. The goal was to figure out just what you or Straggler felt Armageddon had to do with God. And, now that I've told you why I think it hasn't a thing to do with God, perhaps you two could tell me why you think it does.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2011 5:20 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 12:54 PM Jon has replied
 Message 221 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2011 3:16 PM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 536 (609541)
03-21-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by purpledawn
03-20-2011 9:25 AM


Re: Imagination Game
In this discussion, all I see is a lot of imagination floating around. A lot of if's. We can imagine all types of scenarios. At some point one has to look at the reality behind the concepts.
And what do you believe the reality behind the concepts to be?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2011 9:25 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by purpledawn, posted 03-21-2011 5:51 PM Jon has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 536 (609545)
03-21-2011 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Modulous
03-18-2011 3:16 PM


Re: Armageddon outta here (hah!)
That should be a clue that we don't buy it. We just accept that Christians believe in a thing called God and the thing that they call God has certain properties and if there was strong evidence of an entity that has those certain properties then there would evidence of the thing Christians (and other English speakers) call 'God'.
So for you, an Atheist does not disbelieve in GOD/God/god/gods, but in the reality of anything that has been given the label 'GOD'/'God'/'god'/'gods'?
If a bunch of old men in robes described a stampede but I had never seen one and I said that stampedes were figments of the human imagination it seems reasonable to re-visit that theory if I am presented with something that has all the defining characteristics of a stampede.
Of course; and if a bunch of old men in robes described the end of the world to me, but I thought no such thing to be, it would seem reasonable to re-visit that thinking if I were presented with something that had all the defining characteristics of the end of the world scenario described.
On the other hand, if those same robed wranglers told us that there was an invisible cowboy driving the stampede forward, even seeing the stampede should not lead us to accept the existence of the invisible cowboy. The same applies for gods and supernatural end times. Thus, we needn't find ourselves accepting the existence of some God simply because he is claimed to be the driving force behind an Armageddon event that turned out to be real.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : tense... so tense

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2011 3:16 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Modulous, posted 03-22-2011 10:14 AM Jon has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 536 (609546)
03-21-2011 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Straggler
03-18-2011 12:54 PM


Re: Tentative
Jon you now seem to be suggesting that the demonstrable existence of an entity that exactly matches the Christian concept of Jesus isn't evidence in favour of the actual existence of the Christian concept of Jesus.
But of course we're talking about God, not Jesus, whom we already addressed back in Message 199 & Message 200.
I will take on board any method of knowing which is demonstrably significantly superior to blind random chance in terms of yielding results. If they genuinely start describing and predicting reality with the same sort of accuracy and reliability that science currently does then I don't see how they could be ignored.
This is unrelated to my reply, which was specifically about the robed-men's judgements regarding God.
Do you think that calling oneself an atheist is a declaration of certainty? How many times do you need to be corrected about this?
Huh?
Do you know what the word "tentative" means? Have you actually read the OP of this thread at all? Here it is Message 1
LOL.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 12:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Straggler, posted 03-21-2011 12:36 PM Jon has replied

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