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Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   God's Place In Evolution
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 190 (604747)
02-14-2011 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by goldrush
02-13-2011 10:31 AM


If evolution is true, where did the very first man get his knowledge and instruction? Where did he receive his language, and what enabled him to develop his sense of morality and values? If it all came from animals, why don't we all still use identical language and behavior of animals? Why aren't we all like Tarzan? Monkey see, monkey do, right?
So, how is this thread going to be different from the other arguments from incredulity you've posted in the other thread (Thoughts on the Creator Conclusion)?
Why should we participate in this thread when your previous behavior tells us that you'll just duck and run the moment the real arguments start flowing at you?
What do you have to offer?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by goldrush, posted 02-13-2011 10:31 AM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by goldrush, posted 02-14-2011 9:31 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 190 (604756)
02-14-2011 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
02-14-2011 5:16 PM


What are the analogous supernatural experiments that we can do?
Frako's claim was that he does just fine without believing in God; this is a fallacious counter argument to the claim that God is fundamental to life.
Experimentation that might prove the conclusion true does not validate an argument.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taq, posted 02-14-2011 5:16 PM Taq has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 190 (604818)
02-15-2011 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by goldrush
02-14-2011 9:31 PM


Understanding through Discussion
Honestly, once I make a point, I don't feel the need to argue it to death or make a rebuttal to every challenge thrown out, (especially when these challenges go off on tangents all around my point). I post what I think and I basically allow others to do the same.
But this is a discussion board!
If you're not interested in discussion, then why are you here?
But for all others, it is my hope that I will be able to share some points that will get them to step back and think about the real reasons they are for or against a creator.
That is not really the purpose of these forums; there are many kiddie-philosophy forums on the Net where people can throw out random thoughts in the hopes of getting others to think.
Here, however, the members are expected to engage one another in discussing the points that they raise, so that we can all understand one another's position. But you claim to be interested in just posting what you think and letting others do likewise in return with no intention of seriously discussing your points aside from ad nauseam repetition.
I feel the real reasons for our positions on whether are not there is a creator goes beyond the purely rational or intellectual sphere. I believe it has a lot to do with the way we have come to view world conditions (especially the human condition) and the way these views have impacted us emotionally- positively or negatively.
Excellent! But shouldn't this concession go in the other topic, where you claimed the intellectual path to the Creator to be purely logical and rational: 'The deduction of a personal, reasoning Creator, although not empirical, is rational.'?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by goldrush, posted 02-14-2011 9:31 PM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by goldrush, posted 02-15-2011 7:17 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 190 (604819)
02-15-2011 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by goldrush
02-14-2011 10:55 PM


Language and You
I'm going to take another chance and hope that you'll give a thoughtful reply to this post that will encourage discussion and understanding...
It seems to me, that your reasoning is that knowlege and language goes from simple to complex, but this is not necessarily true. The Hebrew language is older and more specific and complex than English. So according to your theory, English should have come before Hebrew, but this is not the case.
Your measures of linguistic 'simplicity' and 'complexity' are unsubstantiated. That Hebrew and English both serve the functions for which they are utilized is evidence that their perceived levels of complexity have nothing to do with their evolutionary histories.
Furthermore, this does not address the issue of humans acquiring Language without the intervention of the Creator. Where is your evidence that such intervention is required?
Also, who is the common ancestor between man and apes? If he is only a theory, what is the evidence for him? All creatures differ a little from their parents, but what hard evidence do we have that one species or kind became another? What evidence do we have that over time mutations create new species altogether?
Do you believe yourself to be different from anyone else that exists or has ever existed? Do you count yourself as unique not only today, but through history as well?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by goldrush, posted 02-14-2011 10:55 PM goldrush has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 190 (604873)
02-15-2011 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by goldrush
02-15-2011 4:51 PM


PRATT
By the way, if Adam had not rejected Gid's sovereignty over him to begin with, we wouldn't be sitting here with the burden of trying to eradicate disease. We have not cured all disease, BTW, so we shouldn't be so proud of ourselves. The root of sickness and death is sin, the sin that occurred in Eden. The sin that alienated mankind from his Source and Creator.
Are you going to be addressing some of the previous counterarguments raised here, or are you just going to keep throwing out different and unrelated pointspoints, which, by the way, have been refuted a thousand times?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : clarity

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by goldrush, posted 02-15-2011 4:51 PM goldrush has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 190 (604912)
02-15-2011 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by goldrush
02-15-2011 7:17 PM


Re: Understanding through Discussion
But the idea behind that original post was to show how people could use rationality alone to come to the creator conclusion.
But you never did that.
As you have said, a poster's entire view if things is not contained in one comment alone.
Of course; but you're working your way toward 30 posts here now, and no one is even slightly aware of how you have reached your conclusions on the Creator outside of your argument-from-incredulity reasoning.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by goldrush, posted 02-15-2011 7:17 PM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 11:19 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 96 of 190 (604998)
02-16-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by goldrush
02-16-2011 11:19 AM


Argument from Incredulity
Also you keep arguing that I am arguing from incredulity, yet you never show how.
Your arguments are pretty textbook. Let's start with the definition of this fallacy, though:
quote:
Wikipedia on Argument from Incredulity:
Arguments from incredulity take the form:
  1. P is too incredible (or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be true); therefore P must be false.
  2. It is obvious that P (or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be false) therefore P must be true.
These arguments are similar to arguments from ignorance in that they too ignore and do not properly eliminate the possibility that something can be both incredible and still be true, or appear to be obvious and yet still be false.
Now, let's look at some of your arguments that you believe support the existence of the Creator:
quote:
goldrush in Message 1:
Obviously, God gave the first man language, spoke to him, and instructed him.
& Message 1 in Thoughts on the Creator Conclusion:
Now consider the alternative to a reasoning Creator: the ability to reason evolving from the inability to reason. Is it logical to make the leap from unreasoning (inanimate and unconscious) to reasoning (animate and conscious) through evolution? No it is not. It is not logical to conclude that reasoning ability had to have evolved from ANY force lacking the ability to reason and think.
Do you see the similarities? Do you see how these arguments are formally identical to the examples given in the Wiki article?
If you do, then that's great! We're off to a good start. If not, then let me know what you think is different and we can go from there.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 11:19 AM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by goldrush, posted 02-18-2011 7:11 PM Jon has not replied

  
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