rocks either pre - date or co-exsist with the designer .. making rocks a sort of unliving diety i guess OR both the foot and the rock where designed to fit each other .. like a car tire and the modern road surface .. thus rocks should show design traits
TONY: I am not a 24hour day (7 CREATIVE "DAYS") Christian. I believe each creative day is a Time period /stage of creation. So the bible written in Hebrew and not English does not give any fixed time for each stage of creation.
Genesis 1:1 So in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ( before stage one or first "day"). Rocks like the earth already existed before the feet that later came to be created by God.
Intelligently copying the natural processes to create a rock is an none issue to me. Intelligence for sure has the ability to create anything it likes if the power and know-how is there.
Nature (scientific physical laws) does not have any know-how or power to Create complex machinery, complex information commands. To cook up a story that it can happen is to lie in the face of intelligent people.
Percy: We've seen this answer before, and of course it brings us to the ever-present ID dilemma about how we know what a designer did and didn't do. ID begins with the premise that there are certain things and processes (like life) that are too complex to have come about naturally, and that therefore could only have been the product of an intelligence. But this intelligence can obviously do much more than just the complex things. If he can do the complex, then obviously he can do the simple, too. If he can create the immensely complex bacterial flagellum, then he can obviously create the much simpler grain of sand.
So how do we tell what the designer did and didn't do?
TONY: God has all the time in the world. He can create the process and let the rocks and sand form themselves - within the laws of physical matter, etc.
Man (life) is different. Sand is made from the erosion of rocks. Life is not. Rocks are not superhuman technology as is life. Matter could be referred as technology but not rocks in them selves. Rocks can occur naturally where as life can not. No one has done it or ever will without brains.
Cells create structure, and so it is not a natural process. Rocks become sand by many natural processes. Tested and proven.
anglagard: My wife and I created a daughter who is made of cells. Are you saying we did this through some unnatural process?
TONY: Yes - you and your wife did nothing, no designing, no bio-technology engineering, structural construction, no communication on how to build a child even. It was all automation, out of your control.
So your body or even cells can automatically do these things, which you can't even begin to achieve. Where does this sub-level intelligence come from?
anglagard: I believe that reproduction indeed has been tested and proven as I not only have personal experience in this matter but also see the evidence virtually everywhere I look. So why do you consider it unnatural?
TONY: Rocks do not have the machinery to have babies, but you do, just not the intelligence to consciously create one. DNA automation is the intelligence built into your sub-level systems - which you know nothing about or how they work.
anglagard: Now as to cells creating structure and rocks not creating structure. While cells do have a complex structure, I think it is important to point out that 'rocks' are also structured according to the same rules of chemistry as cells, just on a more basic level. If you have ever viewed a rock under a microscope, you would notice that it is made up of crystals, which are quite 'structured.' In fact, one of the speculations concerning abiogenensis involves crystal structure imparting itself upon organic molecules due to electrostatic forces and therefore organizing such organic molecules into self-replicating precursors to what is commonly referred to as life.
TONY: All chemistry is the same and organic molecules are nothing but carbon atoms being use with others. There are NO LIVING MOLECULES, no living matter, no "living cells". It is just bio-machinery - masterfully designed into one unit we call the "cell".
Rocks are without technology or mechanical designs. It might be called "crushed matter" as in the bible, with no purpose or function. Just a lump of raw matter, unformed, no designs, no technologies used.
Crystals have no mechanical technologies, like rocks, with no higher purpose, or function too.
Percy: So, yes, the designer could "create the process and let the rocks and sand form themselves". The question is, did he, and what is the evidence supporting your answer to this question?
TONY: The big mystery is just that... what things did God hand make and what other things are a result of the complex "processes" he designed and put in place.
That I am still sorting out in my own head, and so is all mankind.
What bits I do know is there are layers of complex structure making up our universe (physical reality).
When we get to rocks we find a fork in the road of upper complexity. Rocks are not more complex then sandy beaches, mountains, seas, etc.
So-called "Life" is the next level as it were for further structural design complexity. Life is really an illusion of bio-technology. Nothing made of atoms is really alive in it's self. It is just designed to look as if alive or living. Rocks are without this kind of design or this level of complexity.
The same could be said with my car. It is not without higher levels of complexity over and above the base natural processes put in place by the universal designer.
So, can I use ID theory to figure out if it was designed or not?
Though "nature hates a vacuum (or a charge)". There seams to be this chemical cycle which "living" system use. You may find pockets of chemicals that have potential energy if they came in contact with other chemical. But in a local area for the most part everything has no charge or potential.
Batteries will naturally go dead - for there are not "closed systems" in nature (Lot2). So to find such a charged Battery would be â€œmadeâ€ that way. Lemons are batteries too, but they too are made that way â€“ genetically designed and built intelligently.
Rocks have no change and no chemical potential cycle to speak of.
anglagard: Please feel free to elaborate. Are you saying that such "DNA automation" is inherently unknowable or are you claiming to be the judge of what I personally do or do not know?
TONY: There is 3.2 billion base pair of coded information in the DNA programming. It is said no one can count to one billion in his life time. Never mind studying it and understand superhuman software of 3.2 billion written code (when you get it down on paper...if).
There are so many things going on at the same time in the body it is hard to understand any of it. Now talking to you, based on your post, you got a long way to go before you and your wife ever hand build any child from scratch. If you did, you would be the first.
anglagard: "How is a crystal more disordered than a sandy beach? What is your definition of complexity? Does complexity mean disorder or order?"
TONY: There is no molecular machinery with complex programming in crystals or rocks, just raw basic material without the bio-molecular technology - working parts.
Percy: But more importantly, there is a threshold of complexity beyond nature's power to produce without divine assistance. Do I have this right?
If so, then the question becomes, how do you measure complexity, and how do you determine the threshold of complexity above which divine assistance is required.
TONY: Here is another way to look at it. Artificial flowers are not real flowers - like a cheep optical illusion designed to fool the simple eye with at least the beauty that flowers have.
Life is a cleverly designed optical/intellectual illusion of what real life would look like it such a thing did really exist - though is does not - but an artificial one was designed to look as if it were that real thing - that can not really exist any way.
Rocks are not made to look real - at our level anyway. But Matter itself is yet another one of those optical illusions because it is just energy fields (Electro-magnetic) past on as physical, solid matter. It is not really what the eye thinks it is.
My point is, all illusions are cleverly contrived - intellectual thought out ideas. It is like the whole universe is like an artificial flower that is made to look as really as possible - at least to you and me on the surface. But not too deep that we can not find out what is real going on, what it is all about and how it is all made.
Rocks are natural, as this level of reality goes, but looking deeper it is not as physical and solid as our eyes would seem to think it is. Artificial flowers are plastic and rocks are nothing more then energy designed to masquerade as a reality that is solid and physical but can not really exist, so it is designed to look like the next best thing to real, which could never exist anyway. An illusion of a physical reality - artificially made to look as real as possible.
Percy: A last point. The Discovery Institute, which is the primary organization force behind the intelligent design movement, advises those who ask that the divine is not part of intelligent design theory, that intelligent design is science, not religion. If your goal is to displace or at least reduce the treatment of evolution in public school science classrooms, then you have to stop talking about God as the creative force and start talking about an intelligent designer.
TONY: Truth will find its way, one way or another. Biotechnology is doing all the talking for us. The more they find out about life the more the answers are made simpler to understand.
Truth may never find its way in the school, just like honesty can not find its way in politics.
Many religions for thousands of years taught lies, myths, etc. Kings were all to happy to use them. Sometimes the kings added more to the stories for there own gain and control.
The same is true today; the debate is really over... I win, you lose. But will society let that be the way things are, or will they fashion the world as they please. They always fashion society in the way they please and that will never stop. So I win the battle but lose the war... I am right, but society is taught I am really wrong and uneducated, too religious pig headed, etc , etc.
This debate can not be won in an ungodly, wicked, immoral society. God can and will speak for himself - hope you live to see it.
(I know - don't throw ROCKS in glass houses) still on topic...Hehehe.
Over the last 25 years, scientists have discovered an exquisite world of nanotechnology within living cells. Inside these tiny labyrinthine enclosures, scientists have found functioning turbines, miniature pumps, sliding clamps, complex circuits, rotary engines, and machines for copying, reading and editing digital information-hardly the simple "globules of plasm" envisioned by Darwin's contemporaries.
Moreover, most of these circuits and machines depend on the coordinated function of many separate parts. For example, scientists have discovered that bacterial cells are propelled by miniature rotary engines called flagellar motors that rotate at speeds up to 100,000 rpm. These engines look for all-the world as if they were designed by the Mazda corporation, with many distinct mechanical parts (made of proteins) including rotors, stators, O-rings, bushings, U-joints, and drive shafts.
TONY: Rocks are missing all clues of ID. The atoms have no order or complex planned designs to speak of as are found in life.