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Author Topic:   American Budget Cuts
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 286 of 350 (606875)
02-28-2011 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 6:45 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Phage writes:

So, do you agree the wealth can be used to enhance productivity of people who use it?

It can - yes.

Phage writes:

(this is like pulling teeth)

Well I am a vampire.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 6:45 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 7:07 PM Straggler has responded

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 287 of 350 (606877)
02-28-2011 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Straggler
02-28-2011 6:48 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:

It can - yes.

Ok, so should those who devote their wealth through investment be able to reap some of the increase in productivity while retaining their investment's value?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:48 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Straggler, posted 03-01-2011 3:20 AM Phage0070 has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19890
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 288 of 350 (606879)
02-28-2011 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 1:27 PM


still worse on the bottom than on the top.
Hi Phage0070, sorry, but I don't\can't agree.

You are getting it. Without the invested money your efforts are not terribly profitable.

So you assert without any evidence of it being true.

On the other hand I KNOW that I have done things in my life that have not been adequately recompensed especially by comparison to the top company execs. Nor did I have any means for redress (the "you can always quit" somehow doesn't cut it).

WRONG! You could get a decrease in value without a change in percentage if the overall value available decreased. You are trying to compare a reduction in overall percentage share from one year to the next with a static view of the overall value available, which is simply wrong.

Nope. The overall real value of things does not change that dramatically year to year. The biggest changes occur when parts of the economy crash, such as the housing market recently -- and in that case the poor lost out way more than the rich, especially when they got bailed out by the rich bought politicians with tax money from everyone, including the poor.

Personally I would have let them crash, even though it would have hurt my investments at a time when I am getting ready to retire.

I also would never have given money to the rich\corporations to improve the economy in the first place -- that is another republican lie based on the falsified myth of the trickle-down theory. I would have given it to the poor or at least distributed the same $$ amount to every taxpayer.

NNNNoooooo, it also depends on the amount of stuff out there available for purchase. You are leaving out massive elements of the equation.

Which also does not vary that much year to year, and for all intents and purposes is relatively insignificant. Whether growth is static or steady doesn't make a significant difference to the equations: you'd have to show wild swings in productivity to justify that.

Of course when you look at the stock market, you do see wild swings in apparent value.

The problem is that stock values are artificial, manipulated and not based on real value of products, hence the trading and margins and other games brokers and investors use to fabricate value, and try to buy below value and sell above value. Stocks are a way that big companies use to print new money.

Real value is what some product sells for. You can ask $300,000 for your house, but if it sells for $100,000 then that is - and was - the value of the house.

If someone's share of the total money supply decreases by 1% but the amount of goods available to purchase doubles... their purchasing power dramatically increased.

(A) - Which we very very rarely see in reality.

AND, (B) - their ability to buy still goes down 1% unless the prices change. The vast quantity of items you can't afford does not increase your ability to afford them. I can't suddenly afford a $3,000,000 house because more of them are on the market.

RAZD writes:

You seem to think that in an ideal world everyone can work happily and make a profit.


Yes they can, your poor understanding of economic notwithstanding.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Every time someone makes\takes a profit somebody else loses, because they are taking money out of the process of exchanging production labor for money and money for the product of labor.

Your denial shows that you don't seem to understand the underlying reality. The value of a gallon of milk does not change because the price changes, rather the price changes because the value of the money to be able to buy the milk changes - the supply and demand for milk stays about the same every year, yet the price keeps escalating. Every time the value of actual products increases like this it is due to the change in value of the money to buy the product, and the reason the value changes is due to people trying to extract a profit from the exchange of milk for the same amount of labor needed to produce the milk.

This discourages investment, making it harder for the poor to find investment capital. Being unable to buy equipment or labor which they can leverage into increased profit is hurting them, not helping them.

Another rote learned bit of pro big business propaganda unsupported by any evidence. If anything challenges your greedy profits, claim it is bad for the economy.

Amusingly the economy is made by the exchange of money not the having of it. Curiously having more money in the coffers of state and federal governments from the greedy profit takers means they need to take less from the poor and are better able to spend those funds on services that provide benefits for all - poor and rich alike - like roads and healthcare, and thus improving the economy.

Pensioners can still buy milk and pay their property taxes.

The top 5% of earners paid far more than the bottom 95%. Where on Earth are you getting your data?

The Tax Foundation, a "pro-business" organization:
Millionaire's tax rates:

1945 - 66.4%
1965 - 55.3% (LBJ tax cut)
1982 - 47.7% (Reagan tax cut)
2000 - 36.4% (before Bush)
2010 - 32.4% (with Bush cuts)

The tax rate increments stop at 35% for $379,150 and up, no matter how high.

In 2002 the top bracket was 38.6% for $307,050 and up, no matter how high.

Above $379,150 the tax rate is regressive not progressive and works like a fixed tax rate for the ultrarich.

The tax system benefits the ultrarich way more than the poor, not just in the structure of the tax rates but in the exclusions that don't apply to poor.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 1:27 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 7:40 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19890
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 289 of 350 (606880)
02-28-2011 7:27 PM


TOPIC REDIRECT
And we are way off topic for reducing the budget by cutting military - specifically unnecessary military - spending.

Seems to me one or two years of taking $325 billion out of the budget would go a long way to balancing the budgets.

By contrast the Republican plan would cut services to people in most need of them and cost (estimates now range up to) 700,000 jobs, jobs that provide goods and services to the country.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...-cut-plan-wou_n_829302.html

quote:
A Republican plan to sharply cut federal spending this year would destroy 700,000 jobs through 2012, according to an independent economic analysis set for release Monday.

The Republican plan is just another scarcely veiled attempt to derail the improvements that Obama has accomplished.

If state and federal budgets don't have the cash to keep their programs in place, then it is time to repeal the tax cuts, especially for the wealthy, whose survival is not in jeopardy.

Stimulate the bottom of the economy and everyone will be able to survive.

Cut the military budget permanently and we can reduce the debt, not just the deficit.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Taq, posted 03-01-2011 3:14 PM RAZD has responded

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 350 (606882)
02-28-2011 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by RAZD
02-28-2011 7:16 PM


Re: still worse on the bottom than on the top.
RAZD writes:

You are getting it. Without the invested money your efforts are not terribly profitable.

So you assert without any evidence of it being true.

So quit and go it alone. Oh, that doesn't cut it? Well then you really know the answer, you are just trying to deny it.

RAZD writes:

Nope. The overall real value of things does not change that dramatically year to year.

But the number of things available can.

RAZD writes:

and in that case the poor lost out way more than the rich

In percentage or total amount? I don't see how you could possibly argue in total amount.

RAZD writes:

The problem is that stock values are artificial, manipulated and not based on real value of products,

No, stock values are not based on the value of products. Thats... not at all what they are or symbolize.

RAZD writes:

Stocks are a way that big companies use to print new money.

No, stocks are a way companies obtain investment capital.

RAZD writes:

Real value is what some product sells for. You can ask $300,000 for your house, but if it sells for $100,000 then that is - and was - the value of the house.

Thats... no. Thats not it. Thats not it at all. The term you were looking for is "market value".

RAZD writes:

Every time someone makes\takes a profit somebody else loses,

Still wrong, try taking basic economics.

I can't be bothered to slog through the rest of your ignorant rantings. The vast majority of your claims are contradicted by established economic theory and observation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2011 7:16 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1884
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 291 of 350 (606884)
02-28-2011 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Omnivorous
02-28-2011 3:19 PM


Not Attica! Attica!, but Attilla! Attilla!!
Omnivorous writes:

Most of the poor are working poor, laboring away at jobs (often more than one) that their employers feel need not pay a living wage because there are always more poor people desperate enough to take them.

Or employers ship the work overseas where people will work for almost nothing. Or they will bring in cheap workers willing to live in squalid conditions and work more than 80 hours a week for a pittance via the H1B visa program. Or they gradually replace the salaried workers with sub-contracted workers, who then have to find their own benefits because their rights are signed away as a condition of taking the job, while the company pockets the savings. Then later on they emphasize how important it is to work extra unpaid hours, because, hey, you are a professional - you went to college and got a degree and all. They put up propaganda posters about how their company was voted "best place to work". They give you little trinkets, awards and occasionally throw a company dinner - all to lull you into thinking things are great. Then they give you a 2-weeks notice because you might be wising up and there are plenty of others on the outside who will readily jump into your seat.

There is a growing groundswell of rumbling anger in this once great country, a groundswell of alarming potency. When the Tea Partiers and Libertarians figure out that the people they've been heartily, religiously championing are, in fact, royally ripping them off - when the redneck poor rightwingers figure out that the Republican Party has been USING them as tank tread fodder to roll over as they proceed to carve up the landscape - then look out!

The ruling class allows the poor in America to pay little or no taxes because the alternative would eventually topple their oligarchy.

And meanwhile, the richest 1% get richer & richer, not realizing how unstable they have made the country. When the hundreds of millions of newly minted American Visigoths, Ostrogoths and Huns gather pitchforks and torches and swarm over the 1%'s precious McMansions with their precious trophy Stepford Wives, it will not be pretty. It will NOT be covered fairly by Faux News or even by MSM. The coverage we see will be sanitized. The Military will be called in, but cannot drop smartbombs on the Wealthy 1% properties. They will use other techniques, but lose to the guerrilla warfare so effective way back in the late 1700's when this country was born. Some of the 1% will flee to their rich mansions on their offshore tax shelter islands, but by then, the now very strong Somalian Pirate Organization, funded by Al Queda, which is funded by Saudi Oil, in cahoots with the hoards of angry Americans, will be waiting for their planes to land and slash them to ribbons on arrival. It will not be pretty. Marie Antoinette was lucky! The real revolution will not be televised.

Frankly stated, they would deserve all this unspeakable carnage, raping, pillaging and plundering that they would be subjected to. This is the inevitable consequence of concentrating wealth into a tiny few, as history has shown over and over again.

They still have time to change the choices of their future that they have made. Unless they do, they will have to face to fact that they are really, really, pissing off 95% of this country

...

Damn!, it's fun writing for the Left. You on the Right just don't know what you're missing!! I love this country!!!


- xongsmith, 5.7d
This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2011 3:19 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2011 8:23 PM xongsmith has acknowledged this reply

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1140 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 292 of 350 (606889)
02-28-2011 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by xongsmith
02-28-2011 7:46 PM


xongsmith writes:

They still have time to change the choices of their future that they have made. Unless they do, they will have to face to fact that they are really, really, pissing off 95% of this country
...

Damn!, it's fun writing for the Left. You on the Right just don't know what you're missing!! I love this country!!!

I do so love a good rant.

But it's true that you can only grind people down so far and for so long before they feel they have nothing left to lose--or become so angry they don't care about consequences.

Note that the folks in the Arab world busily overthrowing their governments are primarily young people with no prospects for jobs.

The Right gets to rant, too. But judging from their blogs, they mostly go on at length about how they would never, never have sex with Nancy Pelosi.



Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare

Real things always push back.
-William James


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by xongsmith, posted 02-28-2011 7:46 PM xongsmith has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2011 9:16 PM Omnivorous has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19890
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 293 of 350 (606904)
02-28-2011 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Omnivorous
02-28-2011 8:23 PM


Hi Omnivorous,

... they mostly go on at length about how they would never, never have sex with Nancy Pelosi.

And for which I presume Nancy is quite happy about not doing. The prospect of sex with a Limbaugh or Beck parrothead is not something to look forward to.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2011 8:23 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2011 11:54 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1140 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 294 of 350 (606920)
02-28-2011 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by RAZD
02-28-2011 9:16 PM


RAZD writes:

The prospect of sex with a Limbaugh or Beck parrothead is not something to look forward to.

I know, right?

God, those poor sheep.



Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare

Real things always push back.
-William James


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2011 9:16 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 295 of 350 (606926)
03-01-2011 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 7:07 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Phage writes:

Ok, so should those who devote their wealth through investment be able to reap some of the increase in productivity while retaining their investment's value?

That is a rather strangely worded question. I am not sure exactly what you mean by "reap some of the increase of productivity". So I will assume you just mean that they will profit from their investment in the form of increased personal wealth.

The answer to your question surely depends on what we are trying to achieve with the economic model we put in place?

If we want to utilise the motive for personal gain to achieve a society that is skilled, productive, efficent, materially catered for and ultimately purposeful and content then the answer to your question is arguably - Yes.

But where the system we put in place (e.g. one where wealth breeds ever greater wealth) results in unrestrained accumulation of personal wealth at the expense of the wider aims we are trying to achieve with our economic model I see no harm at all in puting in place counter-measures to restrict these effects.

It's all about what we are trying to achieve with the economic system we put in place isn't it?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 7:07 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Phage0070, posted 03-01-2011 9:50 AM Straggler has responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 296 of 350 (606938)
03-01-2011 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Jon
02-27-2011 7:09 PM


Re: Is there any other ways to get out of debt?
Jon writes:

If its just China, I think we have a valuable trump card.

And that would be...?

If they get feisty, don't pay them back. We need the money more than they do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Jon, posted 02-27-2011 7:09 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by fearandloathing, posted 03-01-2011 9:17 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2318 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 297 of 350 (606948)
03-01-2011 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Thugpreacha
03-01-2011 7:06 AM


Re: Is there any other ways to get out of debt?
Phat writes:

Jon writes:

If its just China, I think we have a valuable trump card.

And that would be...?

If they get feisty, don't pay them back. We need the money more than they do.

Wouldn't that cause nations that owe us money to do the same??Then what, send in the military and repo something? lol


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-01-2011 7:06 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by xongsmith, posted 03-01-2011 12:30 PM fearandloathing has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 350 (606954)
03-01-2011 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Straggler
03-01-2011 3:20 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:

It's all about what we are trying to achieve with the economic system we put in place isn't it?

I suppose that is correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Straggler, posted 03-01-2011 3:20 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Straggler, posted 03-01-2011 1:27 PM Phage0070 has responded

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1884
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 299 of 350 (607010)
03-01-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by fearandloathing
03-01-2011 9:17 AM


Re: Is there any other ways to get out of debt?
fearandloathing writes:

Phat writes:

Jon writes:

If its just China, I think we have a valuable trump card.

And that would be...?

If they get feisty, don't pay them back. We need the money more than they do.

Wouldn't that cause nations that owe us money to do the same??Then what, send in the military and repo something? lol

Oh - I would think the USA comes out way ahead in that scenario!

Maybe, if China wants their money, the USA should suggest they get it from those other nations first. Yunno, eliminate the middle man, and all. But after that little bookkeeping item is dealt with, China would still come right back & demand the remaining lion's share.

No - the primary problem with this strategy of reneging is the effect on the value of a dollar in the international market. China already owns in significant, but hard to itemize, excess of some 1.1 trillions dollars of the USA already. Indeed, the difference between Made In China and Made In The USA is probably just a column on a corporate spread sheet for income tax purposes.

In World War II Pacific theater, Japan was losing (before the Bombs) because they were using Go game strategy and couldn't cope with the US being able to fly in and establish island bases that were sustainable. Now, while China has made great strides in the expertise of Wei-chi enough to knock off the Japanese supremacy there on many occasions, they also learned from the US WWII strategy and have established bases of power within the US borders. They are NOT dumb.


- xongsmith, 5.7d
This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by fearandloathing, posted 03-01-2011 9:17 AM fearandloathing has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 300 of 350 (607028)
03-01-2011 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phage0070
03-01-2011 9:50 AM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Phage writes:

Straggler writes:

It's all about what we are trying to achieve with the economic system we put in place isn't it?

I suppose that is correct.

So what do you think we are trying to achieve?

And is the ever increasing concentration of wealth conducive to that aim?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phage0070, posted 03-01-2011 9:50 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Phage0070, posted 03-01-2011 1:36 PM Straggler has responded

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