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Author Topic:   Life without God
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 7 of 85 (608260)
03-09-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mike the wiz
03-09-2011 3:59 PM


Mike,
So how do you square the pain and suffering in the world with "What we would do is to thank God . . . for our lives"? How can we differentiate between a God guided universe and one that is not?
Cavediver, and atheists such as myself, see a universe that is indifferent to our daily existence and experiences. The bacterium that may cause my death is, in the end, really indifferent to my existence. The hurricane is completely unaware of the pain it causes. The cancer that is killing a 5 year old and causing great pain is not the result of a distant ancestor eating the wrong fruit, nor is it due to some inexplicable greater plan put in motion by an inscrutable supernatural deity. Cancer just happens.

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 Message 6 by mike the wiz, posted 03-09-2011 3:59 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by mike the wiz, posted 03-09-2011 5:06 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 13 of 85 (608297)
03-09-2011 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by mike the wiz
03-09-2011 5:06 PM


This suggests a lack of knowledge about our beliefs concerning the fall of man, a deteriorating world, and a groaning world awaiting redemption?
At this time, this is a fallen world we live in, because of what is referred to as the "curse". (I don't know how much you know about this, but basically, bad things happening, etc....are the result of going it alone without God.
I understand the theology, but how does a fallen world differ from one where shit just happens for reasons that have nothing to do with us? I would suggest that they are identical.
You have to remember Taq, that these are very common questions we get asked, but we ourselves believe that we have sufficient answers to these questions. Answers that don't seem to satisfy atheists, but to ask them again does not mean we don't have answers.
I am sure that you do have answers that are sufficient for you, but they are not always sufficient for everybody. Like cavediver said in the OP, "everything just *IS* and I LOVE IT".
I went through what cavediver is going through, but at a much younger age. Doubt turned to apathy during my high school years. I kept going to church because it was expected of me, and I did enjoy seeing friends in youth group. Other than that, I had no fondness nor hatred towards christianity. I could see how others needed these beliefs as part of their lives, but I just saw no need for it. I, like cavediver, accepted reality for what it is instead of what I wished it to be.
Perhaps you could read my blog, as there are some topics that deal with the problem of evil, giving an explanation. HERE (As you can see by the date, I have not just written this.)
It is immoral to punish children for the sins of their ancestors. When we start throwing people in jail for something their great-grandparents did, let me know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mike the wiz, posted 03-09-2011 5:06 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 03-09-2011 5:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 21 of 85 (608485)
03-10-2011 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
03-09-2011 5:55 PM


You may not know this, but people who doubt, who never pushed deeper, who went cold and left, that is not a surprise to me. But did you ever genuinely repent, to God - and ask Him to change it? No - you left.
I did ask, and no one answered. I soon realized that I should work on asking the forgiveness of those I have sinned against, and then work on forgiving myself.
But that's the thing - if I had wishful thinking I would do as my flesh wanted. I would obey lust, anger, selfishness, etc? ht does the flesh profit? It profits nothing - and if I am honest, I never particularly wanted to live forever, not in this world.
That's not how it works. Some of us don't need the a belief in God in order to be a respectful member of society. Some of us actually want to be good because it is the right thing to do.
What I meant by "accepting reality for what it is" is that I see no need to insert a deity into the whole process. Children die of cancer. That is the reality. I see no reason to say that children die of cancer. . . because this is a fallen world. The last part is just added on for no reason and does nothing to explain reality.
You assume that your position is "reality", without proving it.
What I am trying to say is that I do not add things to reality, such as deities, for which there is no evidence. That is what theists do, not me.
The sky does not proclaim that, "atheism is reality".
The sky does not proclaim that, "god exists". This is the atheist position, that there is no compelling evidence for the existence of god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 03-09-2011 5:55 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 83 of 85 (608980)
03-15-2011 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by slevesque
03-15-2011 4:50 PM


What I'm saying is that even though each person has his own view of what is morality, in a christian worldview there is a common ground, the Bible, that we all agree does contain the right moral absolute.
The problem is that you are not speaking of morality. You are speaking of obedience. The Bible is held as a moral absolute, an unquestionable authority. If the Bible says that something is immoral then it is immoral because the Bible says so, and you must follow that ruling. Period.
Morality is something quite different. Morality is the process of using reason and empathy to determine what is wrong or right. Morality is not bowing to the edicts of an authority. When you give up the process of judging morality for yourself and instead follow the edicts of an authority the best you can claim is that you are obedient.
Atheism, rather can give value to human life, but this will be relative.
At least it is based on reason and empathy instead of edicts.

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 Message 81 by slevesque, posted 03-15-2011 4:50 PM slevesque has not replied

  
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