Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,870 Year: 4,127/9,624 Month: 998/974 Week: 325/286 Day: 46/40 Hour: 1/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Life without God
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 51 of 85 (608866)
03-14-2011 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taq
03-10-2011 4:00 PM


That's not how it works. Some of us don't need the a belief in God in order to be a respectful member of society. Some of us actually want to be good because it is the right thing to do.
But that's just the inconsistency of atheism right, there is no such thing as being good for goodness sake. In the words of Cavediver, nothing is right or wrong, ''everything just IS''. With the clear consequences that this can have.
Children's starving, people dying of cancer, entire villages wiped out by tsunami's. These things are neither right or wrong, they just ARE. right ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Taq, posted 03-10-2011 4:00 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 8:37 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 9:56 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 56 of 85 (608873)
03-14-2011 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by fearandloathing
03-14-2011 8:37 PM


I don't belive in God in any practical sense. Maybe I am conflicted or just plain confused? I do belive that it is possible that "God" started the whole process before time existed as we understand it, but after T=0. big bang, he has let things develop on their own. There is no proof of this , but I cant discount it either.
SO you're ... agnostic ? soft atheist ? In any of these cases, your approach to morality will be similar to atheists.
I do know that I try to give back, I do habitat for humanity houses. I plumb at least one a year for the last 6 years or so, since work is slow I have done a few more the last 2 years. I do it because it makes me feel good, everyone there is coming together for a common goal to help. There is a sense of fellowship that is just good, different people from many different walks of life coming together in a positive goal, putting our political and religious and racial differences aside.
None of this actually deals with what I said actually. If things just ARE, how can you say such and such a thing is wrong ? or right ?
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 8:37 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 9:25 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 58 of 85 (608880)
03-14-2011 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by fearandloathing
03-14-2011 9:25 PM


I don't know what group I would fit into?? I guess I am ignorant as to what group I am supposed to support although I really don't like being called anything. One of the reasons I am on this forum is to learn, and to gain a better understanding of my own beliefs, they are by no means set in stone. I want people to challenge my worldviews.
Fair enough, but don't take this as ''a group you are supposed to support'', because it's not about that. It is just words that we define to identify people's different worldviews. Saying that your personnal worldview is more like atheism doesn't mean you have to ''support the group''.
Right or wrong is subjective. Many people would disagree about what is moral. I base my decisions on my own Idea of what is right and wrong...on many things we would agree I am sure. On others we would probably differ.
But on those thigns that we do differ, is one of us more correct then the other ? Or are we both correct ? or are we both incorrect ?
If I say that to kill retarded children is ok, and you disagree, how do we settle this ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 9:25 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 9:58 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 61 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 10:09 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 62 of 85 (608884)
03-14-2011 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
03-14-2011 9:56 PM


I don't see why not.
Because ''everything just IS''. That is why.
Now, because of this foundational aspect of atheism, if you do assign the labels of ''good'' or ''bad'' to different things, it won't be for goodness's sake, because goodness does not actually exist. Rather, it will rather be through a philosophy of morality, the most prominent (in my opinion) amongst atheists being utilitarianism, and so in this case, you will do good for it's usefulness sake.
I can listen to music for the sake of listening music, can't I? (It would be strange to do so for any other reason.) And I can do so on the basis that I have a preference for (let us say) the Goldberg Variations over (for example) the "songs" of whales, without having to believe that there is some supernatural being with a preference for Bach over Megaptera novaeangliae (or possibly vice versa); and while accepting that a humpback whale would disagree with my judgment.
Now just as I prefer noises that appeal to my aesthetic sensibility, I prefer situations which appeal to my ethical sensibility. A lion will kill another lion, steal his harem, and eat their cubs to make way for his own; he does so apparently without feeling shame (nor incurring blame from the lionesses). I find that to emulate the lion is not to my taste; I do not need to add to this the proposition that it is not to God's taste. I abstain from doing so solely for the sake of not doing so, because it is amongst the things that I don't want to do.
But then, how can you condemn someone who does something you think is wrong ? If he claims 'he does the things he does just because he wants to', just like you.
A pedophile, for example ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 9:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 10:47 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 63 of 85 (608885)
03-14-2011 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Dr Adequate
03-14-2011 9:58 PM


So the stronger one is right ? Or the one with the most people who agree with him ? Or is nobody right 'in the reality of things' ?
And how would you know if voting is a good way to approach these situations ? By having a vote ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 9:58 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 10:21 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 65 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 10:26 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 66 of 85 (608890)
03-14-2011 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by fearandloathing
03-14-2011 10:26 PM


It is easy to "answer" a question with another one. But now is when you tell us what you think we should do...what is your opinion???
In my worldview, absolute morality does exist, and so one person will be right, and the other will be wrong. We now which is which by comparing to this absolute morality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 10:26 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 10:52 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 69 by fearandloathing, posted 03-14-2011 10:53 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 70 of 85 (608901)
03-15-2011 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
03-14-2011 10:52 PM


I think you're missing the key difference here:
In my worldview, absolute good and bad exists. It does not depend on my opinion of it. I can be mistaken about what it is, with the consequences this can have for myself and others.
In an atheistic worldview, it does not exist. Whatever good and wrong is from your POV, it is strictly dependant on yourself, with consequences that are ultimately either good or bad only in the eye of the observer. In reality, killing thousands of people is no different then mowing the lawn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-14-2011 10:52 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Granny Magda, posted 03-15-2011 3:28 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 72 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2011 3:31 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 75 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-15-2011 5:31 AM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 73 of 85 (608904)
03-15-2011 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by PaulK
03-15-2011 3:31 AM


Unless you KNOW what is and is not absolutely right or wrong it's not a key difference at all. It's merely an opinion which has no practical import at all.
Of course, my contention is that I know this moral absolute is found in the Bible. So it does reveal to be a key difference
Even the first sentence is false.
Not at all, it is a direct conclusion from the atheist claim ''everything just IS''
There's simply no rational reason to link a belief in absolute morality with a belief in God.
You haven't really thought this out, did you ? An absolute morality cannot exist if only matter and energy exists, therefore if an absolute morality is to exist it can only be in the case where not only matter and energy exists. ie supernatural exists. (the next step that can be taken from absolute moral laws to lawmaker is trivial at this point)
The last sentence on the other hand is simply vile.
Question-beggin epithet
How can you justify saying such things under your "absolute morality" ?
It's a form of reductio ad absurdum; given the premises of atheism, it is a logical consequence. One arrangement of atoms is not intrinsically more valuable then any other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2011 3:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-15-2011 6:24 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2011 2:54 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 74 of 85 (608905)
03-15-2011 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Granny Magda
03-15-2011 3:28 AM


With the slight difference that when I mow my lawn, the grass doesn't scream and tearfully beg me to spare its life.
The chemical reactions it produces is of course different in both cases.
The only moral principle that need be assumed is that suffering is bad, something that scarcely takes a great leap of faith. All further moral principles simply follow from this; they seek to reduce suffering.
But suffering, and death, is a key component of natural selection. In a world where ''everything just IS'', well 'natural selection also just IS', and I don't see how you can justify it is bad in the case of some general concept of suffering, yet claim it 'just is' in the case of natural selection
(unless you are of the view that Natural selection is bad)
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Granny Magda, posted 03-15-2011 3:28 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-15-2011 5:57 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 79 by Granny Magda, posted 03-15-2011 12:25 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 81 of 85 (608977)
03-15-2011 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dr Adequate
03-15-2011 6:24 AM


And this would also have been contended just as vigorously by your co-religionists when they set fire to you for being a heretic.
I would have suggested to apply the biblical principle that ''A goof tree produces good fruit'' I guess.
What I'm saying is that even though each person has his own view of what is morality, in a christian worldview there is a common ground, the Bible, that we all agree does contain the right moral absolute.
Well, there's that "absolute" of yours again. What do you mean by it? If by "absolute morality" you just mean "that moral system which is preferred by God over all other conceivable moral systems", then it is trivially true that an atheist does not believe in absolute morality, and that at least one supernatural being, namely God, is necessary for there to be "absolute morality". (Just as if you used "absolute bicycle" to mean "God's favorite bicycle".)
If you mean something else by it, then this is not so clear.
By absolute I mean that it applies to every human being no matter what they think/believe, and that on any given disagreement on morality one person will be wrong and the other right (even if in some situations it will be difficult to know which is which), and that this will not be the result of popular voting or fighting contests.
But the same would seem to apply in your system: one arrangement of atoms, or indeed of supernatural entities such as souls and angels and demons, is not intrinsically more valuable than another --- rather you seem to suppose that this value is in the mind of God, and if you took him away, while leaving everything else the same, no value would remain.
Within a God-creating worldview, one arrangement of atoms can have more intrinsic value then another. For example, God created humans in his image, and this gives them higher value then anything else.
The moral value of (for example) me hitting you over the head with a brick is (according to you, if I have understood you correctly) not inherent or intrinsic to that situation in itself, but rather depends on whether there is a God and if so what he thinks of it.
You hitting me on the head is wrong because, as a human being, I am made in God's image and this is what makes it intrinsically different then hitting a fly.
Atheism, rather can give value to human life, but this will be relative. ANd if so one day we all decide that asian people have no more value then dogs, then it is so. And this becomes no more, or no less, right or wrong then before.
Try thinking of this strictly from the worldview you claim to have, and go on from there. The reason I say this is because most of the times, atheist come down to ''well I too think that stealing is wrong, see, I can be just as moral as you''. But this is a red herring; the issue is not if an atheist can have the same moral views as me, but rather, if he has the basis to justify this from his worldview. This is particularly true in countries with a christian heritage, because people will take for granted things such as human rights, private property, etc. when in fact these are things that came from the christian worldview, that they were simply brought up to believe to be 'the right thing to do'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-15-2011 6:24 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2011 5:17 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 03-15-2011 5:22 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 84 by jar, posted 03-15-2011 7:20 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 85 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-15-2011 9:22 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024