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Author Topic:   Life without God
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2573 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 16 of 85 (608325)
03-09-2011 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
03-08-2011 6:44 PM


when you say torch, is that the same as a flash light? because here i sit thinking about this guy walking around a field, holding a burning stick looking for a wallet.

the mental ppicture was at least amusing until you found the wallet, then I was like wait, people who uses torches dont have wallets.

on topic: some have faith some do not, to each his own, have a good one.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1583 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 17 of 85 (608328)
03-09-2011 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Artemis Entreri
03-09-2011 7:18 PM


when you say torch, is that the same as a flash light

Yeah, those limeys don't know how to speak English correctly, and it's their own damn language.


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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 85 (608368)
03-09-2011 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
03-08-2011 6:44 PM


My first thought was to thank God. My second thought was to ask myself what I was doing. I stopped, wondering what to do. I had this overwhelming sense of gratitude, but suddenly I had nowhere to channel it; I could hardly be pleased with myself.

May I ask what drives this overwhelming desire to deny the existence of God to the point that you even scoff at the use of a common figure of speech used in situations of happiness and relief?

I do not believe the role of GOD to be at all determinable by my human sensibility, so I agree that it is pointless to figure out what is credited to GOD and what is credited to others and dish out thanks and gratitudes accordingly. Nevertheless, I frequently use such figurative language that references God, gods, spirits, spooks, and other supernatural entities.

Why so averse?

Jon


Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1988 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 19 of 85 (608476)
03-10-2011 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
03-09-2011 11:15 PM


May I ask what drives this overwhelming desire to deny the existence of God to the point that you even scoff at the use of a common figure of speech used in situations of happiness and relief?

You masy ask, but I have no idea given that I do not have that desire. I think you are confused in thinking that I was making "use of a common figure of speech used in situations of happiness and relief". I was actually repeating my old behaviour of directing gratitude and thanks towards a very real (to me) entity with which I had an ongoing relationship and natural discourse.

Why so averse?

Hopefully you now realise that there was no aversion, merely a confusion followed by amusement at my "conversation" with a non-existent entity.


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1988 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 20 of 85 (608484)
03-10-2011 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Artemis Entreri
03-09-2011 7:18 PM


when you say torch, is that the same as a flash light? because here i sit thinking about this guy walking around a field, holding a burning stick looking for a wallet.

It was actually one of my back-up diving lamps - not something I would really refer to as a "flashlight". But yes, in English English (and according to Wiki, in any English speaking area outside N.A.), a torch is any type of hand held electrical light. My headmounted illumination for speleology is refered to as a lamp: a miner's lamp, caving lamp, etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-09-2011 7:18 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

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Taq
Member
Posts: 8207
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 21 of 85 (608485)
03-10-2011 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
03-09-2011 5:55 PM


You may not know this, but people who doubt, who never pushed deeper, who went cold and left, that is not a surprise to me. But did you ever genuinely repent, to God - and ask Him to change it? No - you left.

I did ask, and no one answered. I soon realized that I should work on asking the forgiveness of those I have sinned against, and then work on forgiving myself.

But that's the thing - if I had wishful thinking I would do as my flesh wanted. I would obey lust, anger, selfishness, etc? ht does the flesh profit? It profits nothing - and if I am honest, I never particularly wanted to live forever, not in this world.

That's not how it works. Some of us don't need the a belief in God in order to be a respectful member of society. Some of us actually want to be good because it is the right thing to do.

What I meant by "accepting reality for what it is" is that I see no need to insert a deity into the whole process. Children die of cancer. That is the reality. I see no reason to say that children die of cancer. . . because this is a fallen world. The last part is just added on for no reason and does nothing to explain reality.

You assume that your position is "reality", without proving it.

What I am trying to say is that I do not add things to reality, such as deities, for which there is no evidence. That is what theists do, not me.

The sky does not proclaim that, "atheism is reality".

The sky does not proclaim that, "god exists". This is the atheist position, that there is no compelling evidence for the existence of god.


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Briterican
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 22 of 85 (608492)
03-10-2011 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mike the wiz
03-09-2011 3:59 PM


Well spoken but at least partially wasted
mike the wiz writes:

But the whole point of the New Testament is to show that there is a faith that comes from God, by receiving the Holy Spirit, and through revelation. Not intellect. Now I could be the biggest bore and talk about confirmation-bias, memory bias, post hoc ergo propter hoc and the likes, but these things do not tell use anything about the faith that comes from The Lord Himself.

As I read the comments of someone who is clearly well-educated, clearly well-spoken, clearly passionate and positive about life, what saddens me the most is that you have chosen to spend what undoubtedly amounts to a large portion of that life engaged in a fantasy.

I DO NOT mean this in a nasty way, and I sincerely hope that you won't take it as such. I also sincerely hope that you are engaged in tangible charitable works or, raising a nice family or... any number of other productive things. The only point I make is that, in a very real sense, I consider someone like yourself wasted, as it seems that a major part of your life is spent in a fantasy world.

I HAD to say that to get it off my chest. Having said that, I thank you for your comments no matter how much I might disagree with them.

I'm glad cavediver found his wallet btw


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Replies to this message:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2490 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 23 of 85 (608496)
03-10-2011 4:58 PM


I am not quiet sure how old I was when I first Questioned where I should put my faith? My mother grew up catholic, my father southern baptist. Neither took me to church as my mother couldn't attend as she was excommunicated from catholic church. She married too young and divorced her first husband. I know this troubled her throughout life. I only found out after I once asked mom why she didn't ever come to church.A friend of mine was preachers son and I went with them from time I was 6 or so til I was a teen. I guess when she told me why she couldn't go I began to wonder. I know she could've converted but I feel like she thought it was her burden to bear.She was married to my dad for 50 years before she passed 2 years ago tomorrow. I think seeing the negative effect on my mother was what led me to the truth. But never once did she influence me either way.

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2573 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 24 of 85 (608505)
03-10-2011 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by cavediver
03-10-2011 4:00 PM


lol i was going to ask about that like the one in your picture, because I use one when fishing, past nightfall, to find my way back to the truck. BTW I call them headlamps. Its interesting that lamp stayed the same or changed at the same time (I realize UK English evolves too, but the stereotype around here is that y'all talk Thee Olde English.), yet flashlight and torch seem so far apart. oh well thanks for you're response, I hate thread jackers, I and just fricking did it myself!!! maybe i'll try starting a thread.

peace

on topic: Faith Hope and Love! It's what its about.

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : i thought of something on topic


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by cavediver, posted 03-10-2011 4:00 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2573 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 25 of 85 (608509)
03-10-2011 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Briterican
03-10-2011 4:16 PM


Re: Well spoken but at least partially wasted
briterican writes:

As I read the comments of someone who is clearly well-educated, clearly well-spoken, clearly passionate and positive about life, what saddens me the most is that you have chosen to spend what undoubtedly amounts to a large portion of that life engaged in a fantasy.

I know this was too someone else, but I hear this one often.

The simple answer is because it makes me happy.

bigger answer
I am a huge gamer, I am creative and have a fantastic imagination, so its realtively easy for me to keep an open mind about things, or even be influenced from reading fiction. I also read alot. Including here (half the time im just here lurking/reading threads). I dig it, man. The Dude Abides. I'm happy in fantasy, it rocks (like Pantera). you can keep your abundance of your reality, we just walk different paths.


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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 26 of 85 (608548)
03-11-2011 7:21 AM


jumping in..
Hrm, I deconverted a few months ago, and it's still very confusing for me. I planned to post her to talk about it, and this topic fits.
Even Mike's post makes me ponder for a bit, only for the news of the earthquake in Japan snapping me back into reality. I've got several arguments for atheism, and together with this earthquake, all this talk about a loving God seems alien.

Going to quote something I wrote on a social forum yesterday.

'' My grandfather married for the second time today. I was in church, and I felt rather uncomfortable. Being in a church I don't know, plus God being treated as reality, and the reading of a bible text from Paul about how much peace believing brings... It has a psychological effect on me. A weird feeling, higher heartbeat, etc. It didn't feel positive, but is was enough to confuse me about my beliefs again. When it was over, I realized the compulsive feeling felt similar to the disturbing feeling I get when I get religious compulsions. Today's was strong, but this happens more often when I'm in a situation that has a psychological religious trigger of some sort. I know it's rationally possible for it to happen, but it still is very difficult to deal with. Thing is, sometimes I also get it in a mild way when reading Islam related statements. I also had it a 2 weeks ago when reading something about SCIENTOLOGY, to my amusement when I caught wind of it.>_>

Yeah, I guess religion has that effect on me.. It sucks and it throws me of balance every time.. >_< Has anyone got this as well in the past?''

I suffered from religous obsessive compulsive disease before, and it still haunts me sporadically. Because of this, I'm rather cynical about people talking about how the holy spirit aids them.

I normally tend to detail my posts more,but I'm tired at this moment, and I have a need to talk to experienced people about the matter. I can provide a link to my full story I wrote in the ''deconversion experiences'' topic, should it be needed.


  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4662
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 27 of 85 (608551)
03-11-2011 9:05 AM


Not convinced
Well, I don't have religious compulsions. This is the thing, that feeling you have, of awe, or whatever it is, I don't truly get it. Whatever it
is, is not what I have.

You have to remember that the religious people of Jesus's day, the Pharisees and Sadducees, etc..they had "religion". Now some of them Christ would say to them; "You are not far from the kingdom of heaven". Even nowadays people are very religious, or have a kind of "head-belief", a kind of generic faith. This is not what I am talking of.

This is what is so very hard to convey. You talk of deconversion, but deconversion from what? Nothing anyone has described, has described the reality of the genuine faith-gift of grace which is the real gold. I have been shown some amazing things, but I have that real and genuine gold.

Can you remember a time when you walked with God, and had peace and joy, even in difficulty and a deliverance that comes from conviction of sin? Did God ever speak to you, in some way you deemed powerful to you? Were you ever delivered from a situation? Did you ever have any of these things happen to you on any level?

If you didn't then you might not have actually been born again. Did you ever repent of your sins, and allow God to deal with those sins in any fashion? Did he, over the years, highlight specific sins He wanted to deal with, did you have a deep conviction of these sins?

I ask these things because those who have faith, all of them I know, will all agree that they have had an experience that proves God exists to them on a personal level, and they can all say they have had prayers answered in specific ways, they have been spoken to by God, whether a still small voice, through the bible, etc... without a doubt, that they have been specifically guided, helped or delivered and that they have no doubt at all that He exists.

If you can look back and say, "no - God did not answer, did not do anything, did not help me, was not there, I only imagined it was so", then it is highly unlikely that you truly had the faith that comes down from heaven because those of us that do have this faith, it is life-changing.

I have known people that were delivered from drugs and alcohol addiction instantaneously. I have heard testimonies of healing from fellow-believers, hundreds of similar stories, and they all describe the same supernatural feeling when they are healed. This is a reality for them, you are not going to explain away how they walked again, to them, or whatever, because they were physically healed in reality, which has nothing to do with fantasy.

I am afraid that from what people have said in this thread, I am more and more convinced that they have only ever had a cheap imitation of the genuine article. Now I could be wrong, but very early on I said that you can't second-guess God. He is omniscient - He does know those that will not choose to trust in Him, and if He knew this, would He give them gold? Why would He, foreseeing that they would walk away because of doubt, give them bread? f you want this bread, repent of your sins, truly acknowledge that you fall short of the glory of a Holy God, and as to be born again.

Now you can all believe we are deluded, but that's just nothing to me, because I have the gold, and all I can do is laugh at the arguments that come against it. The only way to describe it is like this; I have been given a million pounds, and have been spending that money, and people don't believe me, because they don't see the evidence for themselves.

What would you do? Laugh? Scream? You know it but they don't - it's infuriating. It's tantalizing, it's inexplicably impossible to convey with words like I am trying to do in this post without success.

It can be frustrating, but ultimately, only I can know that I received the million, and even though I enjoy the million, and buy everything I want, you are telling me to drop this delusion - to burn this "fake" cash and end my mental illness, forget all of the things I have obtained, as they are in my mind.

Sorry guys, but my hope and joy and love cannot be destroyed and cannot be taken from me.

(Colossians says - "do not let anyone cheat you...with empty philosophy" paraphrase).

Well - for me, you are standing in the dark with a small flashlight shouting; "we have the light we have the light!" Meanwhile I am smiling with joy, because I am standing in the sun, and the brightness is completely filling my whole being, and all I can do is smile.

--No need for any responses, I am leaving this forum now and won't be lurking again for a long time. --

P.S. If it is any consolation, I understand where you are coming from cavediver, and I truly meant it when I say that I like you. I like you a lot, whether you are atheist, or Buddhist, green or blue, gay or alien.

Well, that terrible news of the tsunami has come to me now. Bye for now and do sincerely and with hope, so so so hope you will join me in the daylight some day. If I could guarantee it for you, I would give up my own salvation, but I do not have that power.

Bye for now.


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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 28 of 85 (608566)
03-11-2011 11:11 AM


I do have to confess I'm a little more cynical about certain things, and that makes it impossible to believe in the picture you paint. But this is not a debate forum, and I believe myself to be to young and inexperienced to start a debate on my own, although I could react on several things. I leave it to the rest to comment.

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1988 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 29 of 85 (608572)
03-11-2011 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
03-11-2011 9:05 AM


Re: Not convinced
Nothing anyone has described, has described the reality of the genuine faith-gift of grace which is the real gold. I have been shown some amazing things, but I have that real and genuine gold.

Yes, I know. It is wonderful.

Can you remember a time when you walked with God, and had peace and joy, even in difficulty

Millions of times

and a deliverance that comes from conviction of sin?

Had me on my knees crying my heart out on many occasions.

Did God ever speak to you, in some way you deemed powerful to you?

More times than I can remember.

Were you ever delivered from a situation?

Again, how many examples do you want?

Did you ever repent of your sins, and allow God to deal with those sins in any fashion?

Yes, and as new ones arose, I would go through the process again. Ever looked at or gone through the "Freedom in Christ" course by Neil Anderson?

Did he, over the years, highlight specific sins He wanted to deal with, did you have a deep conviction of these sins?

Completely.

I ask these things because those who have faith, all of them I know, will all agree that they have had an experience that proves God exists to them on a personal level, and they can all say they have had prayers answered in specific ways, they have been spoken to by God, whether a still small voice, through the bible, etc... without a doubt, that they have been specifically guided, helped or delivered and that they have no doubt at all that He exists.

I agree totally, And that was me 100%.

because those of us that do have this faith, it is life-changing.

Yes, it is. Its effect is mind-blowing, both in myself and the many others I have seen be touched by it.

I have known people that were delivered from drugs and alcohol addiction instantaneously.

We may even know some of the same people... the number of connections that criss-cross the evangelical world.

I have heard testimonies of healing from fellow-believers, hundreds of similar stories, and they all describe the same supernatural feeling when they are healed.

Yep, been healed myself, and seen countless other healings.

This is a reality for them, you are not going to explain away how they walked again, to them, or whatever, because they were physically healed in reality, which has nothing to do with fantasy.

Very true. I pray in tongues, and have delivered many words of knowledge and wisdom.

I have been given a million pounds, and have been spending that money, and people don't believe me, because they don't see the evidence for themselves.

I know exactly what you mean, and that's a great description.

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 30 of 85 (608603)
03-11-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by cavediver
03-11-2011 12:34 PM


Re: Not convinced
I hesitate in posting this as I seem to keep winding up in debates, (when all I really want is a discussion),in which I feel completely unqualified to debate. We all have our beliefs and I can’t imagine that I’ll change yours, or anyone else for that matter. Also as being someone who has no doubt that I don't have all my ducks in a row I don't want to sound preachy, but I thought I'd post a couple of my thoughts after reading this thread and the thread on deconversion.

If I could sit down over a beer with you there are a few questions I would like to ask about your so called deconversion. It seems your background in the church has been evangelical. Personally I would describe myself as an evangelical who has a considerable problem with the theology and actions of many of those who would describe themselves in the same way.

It seems to me that the evangelical church so often, particularly in North America, desperately tries turning the Bible into something that it is not intended to be. It is not an equal to the members of the trinity. People like to have something that gives them definitive guidelines, or a set of laws and regulations so that they can have certainty in their lives. Certainly it has some of that in it but I believe that it is a lot more than that. I think that the Bible is the story of God’s people and His relationship with them. However it is the story of people with all their strengths and weaknesses and readers of the Bible should, IMHO, understand that.

For example from Leviticus Chap 20:

quote:
10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

Now compare this from John Chap 8
quote:
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Or how about this from Deuteronomy 21:

quote:
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Compare that to the story of the “Good Samaritan”

The book of Acts tells the story of the early Christian church. The Christian church did not stop growing after that book was written. The history of both the early Jews and the Christian church is full of abuse and error but we have been given both tradition reason and revelation to sort out, over time, what is of God and what comes from self interest and self promotion.
It certainly seems to appear that we have evolved physically over a period of time and it appears to me that in a very similar manner we are evolving spiritually over time.

Frankly the god that many Christians seem to believe in is a god that I wouldn’t believe in either. I’m not at all inclined to worship a God that advocates stoning to death people who are guilty of blasphemy, but I have more than happy to worship a god that desires restorative justice for all. The question then becomes does such a god exist, and we have come to different conclusions.

I have no idea of whether or not God led you to your wallet although my inclination is that you are just very fortunate, but in either case if it had been me I would still give thanks as I believe I am a created being who lives in a world where finding the wallet was possible.

I don’t know on what basis you rejected your faith. It is my view, rightly or wrongly, that when people look at the condition of the church and the cold and dead theology that is sometimes taught, they may well be closer to the heart of God after leaving the church than they were before.

I know I keep repeating this verse from Micah but it is my contention that it simply states what is at the very heart of Christianity.

quote:
Micah 6:8: He has told you, O man what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God.

I think that all of us here can agree that humility, justice and kindness are something we should all strive for and I’m pretty sure that didn’t change for you after you left the church.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
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