This is a more appropriate thread for this since you brought it up again.
Please show me clearly the Greek that supports this quote that in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean.
I've shown you that it isn't in the Greek.
Mark 7:19 Greek
Jesus was Jewish. He didn't undo the food laws.
Biblical Dietary Laws
Below you will find our argument at your fingertips.
GDR writes:
The Jews at the time of Christ had numerous food laws, primarily as detailed in Leviticus 11. Both Jesus and Paul rejected them which of course put them on the wrong side of Jewish leadership at the time. Jesus says this in Matthew 15.
quote:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'" 10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
Jesus isn’t just saying that the rules are changing; He is saying that the original food laws from the OT were rules taught by men and that they were wrong.
Paul in Romans 14 writes:
quote:
14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
Message 251
PurpleDawn writes:
Jesus did not reject the food laws. In Matthew 15:1-20 as in Mark 7:1-23 Jesus was talking about hand washing before eating. It wasn't about what was being eaten. I don't think handing washing was in the laws given by God in the OT. Besides, the Book of Matthew may have been written as a satire.
Message 1
Paul did not reject the food laws. Romans 14 is more than likely dealing with meat offered to idols. Some Jews stayed away from all meats for fear that it might have been offered to an idol. The
Fence around the Torah was a better safe than sorry approach. So they wouldn't accidentally break any of the laws. I haven't found a law from God in the OT that says his people couldn't eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols. He just didn't want them worshiping idols.
Romans 14:1
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. NIV
Basically, eat and don't worry about everyone elses rituals/beliefs or lack thereof. He isn't doing away with the food laws.
Message 253
GDR writes:
purple dawn writes:
Jesus did not reject the food laws. In Matthew 15:1-20 as in Mark 7:1-23 Jesus was talking about hand washing before eating. It wasn't about what was being eaten. I don't think handing washing was in the laws given by God in the OT. Besides, the Book of Matthew may have been written as a satire. Message 1
Mark 7:
quote:
18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body."(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
(Emphasis mine)
Mark even clarifies it for us that Jesus is saying that all foods are clean.
purpledawn writes:
Paul did not reject the food laws. Romans 14 is more than likely dealing with meat offered to idols. Some Jews stayed away from all meats for fear that it might have been offered to an idol. The Fence around the Torah was a better safe than sorry approach. So they wouldn't accidentally break any of the laws. I haven't found a law from God in the OT that says his people couldn't eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols. He just didn't want them worshiping idols.
Here is more of Romans 14:
quote:
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
The question of food that has been offered to idols is dealt with separately in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians to deal with a specific question in that church. In his letter to the Romans it is clear that he is dealing with all food.
Message 254
PurpleDawn writes:
quote:
Mark even clarifies it for us that Jesus is saying that all foods are clean.
Unfortunately, since we are working with translations, it is difficult to read the stories as we do any other book. The translations aren't all the same. That's why when there seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the understanding, I like to dig a bit deeper into the translation and see if I'm missing something. Interlinear and Parallel Bibles are handy. I use Biblos.com.
Mark 7:19 InterlinearThe interlinear doesn't copy well, so you have to go to the link. Notice the words "purifying all the foods". The verse doesn't say that Jesus declared all foods clean.
Mark 7:19 ParallelYou can read the rest at the link.
Young's Literal Translation
because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.'
Young's Literal Translation goes along with the point of what Jesus is saying concerning hand washing. The body is going to get rid of anything it can't use for nutrition. IOW, dirt from your hands is not going to survive digestion.
In 1 Corinthians
The hand washing rituals were commanded by tradition, not the God of Abraham. What we see in the OT are more common sense cleanliness rules. (Leviticus 15)
Washing the Hands - JudaismThe rabbis of the Talmud derived the requirement of washing the hands as a consequence of the statement in Leviticus 15:11. The Talmud inferred the specific requirements of hand-washing from these passages.
The Jews seemed to have made excess rules out of fear as I mentioned in
Message 253 concerning the "fence" around the Torah.
quote:
The question of food that has been offered to idols is dealt with separately in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians to deal with a specific question in that church. In his letter to the Romans it is clear that he is dealing with all food.
But he isn't negating the food laws.
Romans 14: Who Is The Weak Brother?
You're not showing me that my interpretation of passages is wrong. You're just repeating yourself. I'm not going to keep jumping through hoops as you add verses. You should have an understanding of how I read the Bible.
Message 255
PurpleDawn writes:
So we have to understand what they are telling their audience, not what we want to hear. Just like the food issue in Message 253 and Message 255. Neither Jesus nor Paul did away with the food laws. Jesus addressed a traditional ritual and Paul basically was trying to make it easier for Jews and Gentiles to eat together.
The early followers of Jesus still kept Jewish law.
To their neighbors these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the pharisees joined them. So far as we know, their numbers were recruited entirely from Jews and proselytes to Judaism. --From the book "a History of Christianity" by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953.
Message 259
GDR writes:
OK so we don’t agree about how that scripture is to be understood. I still maintain that both Paul and Jesus were very clear that the food laws were not in effect.
Message 260
PurpleDawn writes:
Since the Jewish followers still followed the Jewish laws it is clear that neither Jesus nor Paul did away with the Jewish food laws.
GDR writes:
But your arguments don’t fit the text. Mark even goes so far as to make it crystal clear when he says, (as I quoted earlier), that in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean.
Message 269
™ Version 4.2