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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Declare All Food Clean?
ringo
Member
Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 31 of 88 (847072)
01-17-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by candle2
01-17-2019 12:17 PM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
candle2 writes:

At least you admit that the meat mentioned is contaminated.


I only agree that meat can be contaminated. I certainly do not agree that all pork or all shellfish was contaminated at any time in history.

candle2 writes:

When one eats contaminated .meat he is eating everything that that animal has eaten.


There's a whole food chain, you know. A whole string of creatures have eaten each other without harm. Most of the people in the world eat pork and shellfish without harm.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by candle2, posted 01-17-2019 12:17 PM candle2 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 32 of 88 (847073)
01-17-2019 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by candle2
01-17-2019 12:17 PM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
Candle2 writes:

At least you admit that the meat mentioned is contaminated.

Meat is not generally contaminated.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by candle2, posted 01-17-2019 12:17 PM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 01-17-2019 7:17 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 45 by candle2, posted 01-19-2019 1:37 PM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 33 of 88 (847083)
01-17-2019 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
01-17-2019 12:56 PM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
I think "contaminated" in this case referrers to some religious sense of unclean rather than any physical contamination from microbes/molecular agents.

In the ancient world there were major issues with pork and other meats being difficult to keep from contaminants both of the animal and of the meat after slaughter. The resulting dietary restrictions were quite prudent at the time and should surprise no one that they made their way into the prevailing religious memes in a population.

With proper feeding, slaughter and handling these issues no longer exist. We have come a long way in 3000 years. But, as usual, the religious mind gets stuck in the old ways and makes irrational reasons to maintain the meme. The "spirit" of the animal/meat being unclean, somehow/somewhy poisoned by god, is now the rationale.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2019 12:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2019 3:36 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 41 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-18-2019 11:13 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 42 by candle2, posted 01-19-2019 9:09 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 34 of 88 (847093)
01-18-2019 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
01-17-2019 7:17 PM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
AZP writes:

I think "contaminated" in this case referrers to some religious sense of unclean rather than any physical contamination from microbes/molecular agents.

In the ancient world there were major issues with pork and other meats being difficult to keep from contaminants both of the animal and of the meat after slaughter. The resulting dietary restrictions were quite prudent at the time and should surprise no one that they made their way into the prevailing religious memes in a population.

Maybe, I think it more likely that it was merely ritual and control.

In any case this idiot *is* saying that some animals are actually contaminated.

Candle2 writes:

Some animals are clean and fit, designed for human consumption.
Some animals are contaminated/polluted, not for human consumption.
Therefore, not all animals are to be eaten be humans

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 01-17-2019 7:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 01-18-2019 6:51 AM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 35 of 88 (847099)
01-18-2019 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tangle
01-18-2019 3:36 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
Maybe, I think it more likely that it was merely ritual and control.

Certainly. But the priests did sometimes try to do some good for their charges. Just like Fishy Fridays for Catholics.

In any case this idiot *is* saying that some animals are actually contaminated.

Can't argue against that. He/she/it did get into scavengers, bottom feeders, garbage eaters, etc. as reasons, which just so happen to correspond to the reasons of the ancient priests.

quote:
Some animals are contaminated/polluted, not for human consumption.

A blanket statement borne of religious zeal, I think.

His/her/its mind is stuck inside a book.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2019 3:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 01-18-2019 7:51 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 01-18-2019 10:39 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 40 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-18-2019 11:01 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 36 of 88 (847102)
01-18-2019 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
01-18-2019 6:51 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
AZP writes:

But the priests did sometimes try to do some good for their charges. Just like Fishy Fridays for Catholics.

Don't think so, it's just another ritual as a control function - a weekly remider of who's boss. This is a quote from a random Catholic site.

quote:
Catholics are required to abstain from eating meat on Ash Wednesday and each Friday in Lent (including Good Friday). Fish is often used as a substitute for meat-based meals. But of course, with the popularity of vegetarian and vegan diets, there are many other solutions besides fish.

Historically, since about the second century of Christianity, Christians abstained from eating meat on Fridays as a kind of sacrifice and reminder that acknowledged Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross, which we commemorate on Good Friday. It’s also why we proclaim the sorrowful mysteries of the rosary on Friday. About a century or two later, Lent came into being, as a season of intense preparation for Easter, so the fasting and abstinence was extended to much of Lent.


Wiki

quote:
Current practice of fast and abstinence is regulated by Canons 1250–1253 of the 1983 code. They specify that all Fridays throughout the year, and the time of Lent are penitential times throughout the entire Church. All adults (those who have attained the 'age of majority', which is 18 years in canon law) are bound by law to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday until the beginning of their sixtieth year. All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence on all Fridays unless they are solemnities, and again on Ash Wednesday; but in practice this requirement has been greatly reduced by the Episcopal Conferences because under Canon 1253, it is these Conferences that have the authority to set down the local norms for fasting and abstinence in their territories. (However, the precept to both fast and abstain on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday is usually not dispensed from.)

Absent any specification of the nature of "fasting" in the current Canon Law, the traditional definition is obviously applicable here which is that on the days of mandatory fasting, Catholics may eat only one full meal during the day. Additionally, they may eat up to two small meals or snacks, known as "collations". Church requirements on fasting only relate to solid food, not to drink, so Church law does not restrict the amount of water or other beverages – even alcoholic drinks – which may be consumed.



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 01-18-2019 6:51 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by candle2, posted 01-19-2019 6:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 37 of 88 (847110)
01-18-2019 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
01-18-2019 6:51 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
AZPaul3 writes:

He/she/it did get into scavengers, bottom feeders, garbage eaters, etc. as reasons....


Because recycling is a bad thing.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 01-18-2019 6:51 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 01-18-2019 2:38 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 38 of 88 (847153)
01-18-2019 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
01-18-2019 10:39 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
Because recycling is a bad thing.

Right, but only for things that feed off of death or the icky unappetizing leftovers from meals past.

Recycling grass through a lamb is ok. Just don't mention what the grass is recycling though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 01-18-2019 10:39 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1523
Joined: 12-22-2015


(1)
Message 39 of 88 (847175)
01-18-2019 10:56 PM


Is a chicken a scavenger?
I don't know if this will be ignored by Candle, but here is why I ask.

I put ARE CHICKENS SCAVENGERS into google.I already know that chickens will eat ANY type of meat, even chicken meat, when they scavenge.

Here are a few links from google.

quote:

Billions of village or backyard, mainly scavenging, chickens are found in almost all developing countries throughout the world. In many African countries, village chickens make up 70-80% of the national flock.

http://www.poultryhub.org/.../scavenging-chickens-background


Special scavenging breeds have been developed, as the above link shows.

Here is a Kosher discussion.

quote:

this section would therefore be a short discussion of the chicken, which is universally accepted as kosher.

Records indicate that chickens were domesticated and eaten in Israel as early as the seventh century BCE, although following the fall of the Roman Empire chickens predominantly reverted to the role of indigenous scavengers until the agriculture renaissance of the 19th century.

There is little question that a chicken is a kosher bird regardless of its breed (see Darkei T'shuva YD 82:24). Just like scientifically they are all chickens, so too halachically.

https://www.kashrut.com/articles/turk_part5/


The chicken is a scavenging animal, right?

Any comments or answers on this one?


Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by candle2, posted 01-19-2019 5:53 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1523
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 40 of 88 (847176)
01-18-2019 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
01-18-2019 6:51 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
[quoe]
Can't argue against that. He/she/it did get into scavengers, bottom feeders, garbage eaters, etc. as reasons, which just so happen to correspond to the reasons of the ancient priests.
[/quote]

The Rabbinical commentary included observations about the proscribed birds (Leviticus 11, Deuteronomy 14) being birds of prey. There is a difference between a scavenger and a bird of prey (the Bald Eagle is a scavenger, while an Owl is a bird of prey).

I asked him for evidence to back up his claim about diseases and scavenging.

Candle refused to respond to my question.

(One would think he could take SOMETHING from the ancient records, even if it was highly selective and misleading)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 01-18-2019 6:51 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1523
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 41 of 88 (847177)
01-18-2019 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
01-17-2019 7:17 PM


What does Jewish tradition show? (the reasons are unknown according to tradition)
quote:

In the ancient world there were major issues with pork and other meats being difficult to keep from contaminants both of the animal and of the meat after slaughter. The resulting dietary restrictions were quite prudent at the time and should surprise no one that they made their way into the prevailing religious memes in a population.

Even Maimonides said that (medieval Spanish?) people don't consider Pork to be harmful to health.

quote:

The Health and Hygiene Explanation

Biblical law's regulation of food exists to protect the health of the Israelite people. This is one of the most persistent explanations of the biblical food regulations, and scholars who attempt to offer an alternative explanation will often first try to refute the health hypothesis. Philo,48 a Jewish philosopher who lived in Alexandria during the first century, holds that Moses protected the health of the Israelites by choosing to prohibit the most delicious meats:

[Moses] has forbidden with all his might all animals, whether of the land, or of the water, or that fly through the air, which are most fleshy and fat, and calculated to excite treacherous pleasure, well knowing that such, attracting as with a bait that most slavish of all the outward senses, namely, taste, produce insatiability, an incurable evil to both souls and bodies, for insatiability produces indigestion, which is the origin and source of all diseases and weaknesses.

The health and hygiene rationale claims other distinguished proponents such as Maimonides and

Nahmanides.50 Maimonides, a physician as well as a biblical scholar, proposes in Guide for the

Perplexed that health reasons are the motivation behind many of the biblical food regulations:

I maintain that the food which is forbidden by the Law is unwholesome. There is nothing among the forbidden kinds of food whose injurious character is doubted, except pork (Lev. xi. 7), and fat (ibid. vii. 23). But also in these cases the doubt is not justified. For pork contains more moisture than necessary [for human food], and too much of superfluous matter. . . . The fat of the intestines makes us full, interrupts our digestion, and produces cold and thick blood; it is more fit for fuel [than for human food]. Blood (Lev. xvii. 12), and

48 Philo of Alexandria lived from ca. 20 B.C.E. - ca. 50 C.E.

https://dash.harvard.edu/...andle/1/8846735/wwilkenfeld.html


So much for an easy answer.

But the brainwashing continues.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 01-17-2019 7:17 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 42 of 88 (847185)
01-19-2019 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
01-17-2019 7:17 PM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
A Consumer Report test of commerically raised catfish revealed them to have bacteria counts of more than 27,000,000 per gram. Fish is unfit to eat at 10,000,000 per gram.

Jesus once fed 5000 people with a few loaves of bread and a few fish. Another time it was 4000. In both instances He ordered all scraps collected that none be wasted.

Yet, this same Jesus (Mark 5) allowed 2000 head of swine to plunge into the sea. If swine was fit for human consumptionn, He would not have wasted the meat.

No one but you, yourself, has said that God poisoned (contaminated, polluted) meat. A rational mind never made this stupid statement, an irrational mind did.

And to state that certain animals were not permitted to be eaten because they are contaminated in a religious sense is silly. It reeks of desperation.

God does not withhold good things from those who love Him. He only wiithholds harmful things, just as any loving parent does.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 01-17-2019 7:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-19-2019 9:40 AM candle2 has not yet responded
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 01-19-2019 11:11 AM candle2 has not yet responded
 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 01-19-2019 3:50 PM candle2 has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1523
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 43 of 88 (847186)
01-19-2019 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by candle2
01-19-2019 9:09 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare up to Louis Pasteur's anthrax vaccine?
Candle will ignore this on

(like he ignores everything else)

quote:

Globally, at least 2,000 cases occur a year with about two cases a year in the United States. Skin infections represent more than 95% of cases. ... Until the 20th century, anthrax infections killed hundreds of thousands of people and animals each year. Anthrax has been developed as a weapon by a number of countries.
Anthrax - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax

What does it have to do with his bogus theological claim?

quote:

All domestic animals are potentially hazardous to human health. Undercooked beef, for example, is a prolific source of tape worms, which can grow to a length of sixteen to twenty feet inside the human gut, induce a severe case of anemia, and lower the body's resistance to other diseases. Cattle, goat, and sheep transmit the bacterial disease known as brucellosis, whose symptoms include fever, aches, pains, and lassitude. The most dangerous disease transmitted by cattle, sheep, and goats is anthrax, a fairly common disease of both animals and humans in Europe and Asia until the introduction of Louis Pasteur's anthrax vaccine in 1881. Unlike trichinosis, which does not produce symptoms in the majority of infected individuals and rarely has a fatal outcome, anthrax runs a swift course that begins with an outbreak of boils and ends in death.65

....

65 Marvin Harris. Good to Eat: Riddles of Food and Culture ( New York: Simon and Schuster, 1985), 70-71.

https://dash.harvard.edu/...andle/1/8846735/wwilkenfeld.html


Still waiting for answers from "candle2".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by candle2, posted 01-19-2019 9:09 AM candle2 has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 44 of 88 (847196)
01-19-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by candle2
01-19-2019 9:09 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
candle2 writes:

Yet, this same Jesus (Mark 5) allowed 2000 head of swine to plunge into the sea. If swine was fit for human consumptionn, He would not have wasted the meat.


That's a bad example. The swine plunged into the sea because they were possessed by devils. That doesn't mean that all swine are unfit to eat.

candle2 writes:

No one but you, yourself, has said that God poisoned (contaminated, polluted) meat.


In this example, that's pretty much exactly what happened. Jesus was the one who made the swine unfit to eat.

Edited by ringo, : Added second paragraph.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by candle2, posted 01-19-2019 9:09 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 45 of 88 (847224)
01-19-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
01-17-2019 12:56 PM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
Minchin is a fool. He is an atheist and evolutionist but certainly not an empiricist.

Evolution has nothing to do with science. It is simply a false belief system. One in which adherents cling to regardless of evidence.

When Dr. Schwierter discovered soft tissue in a (supposedly) 75,000,000 year old T-Rex fossil. It sent the evolutionist community into a frenzy.

They would not accept that the fossil had pliable veins, muscle, and collagen, even though nearly two dozen tests had been performed on it. Many of these so-called open-minded evolutionists refused to believe what they were observing. Some are on tecord as saying that they would never change their world view, regardless of the evidence

Instead of accepting the obvious ( that Dinos are only thousands of years old) they insist that iron preserved the soft tissue.

C14, which has a half life of roughly 5730 years, should have no detectable amount on fossils more than 75,000 years old. Yet, what we observe is thousands of fossils with significant amounts of C14 present. Now there are many fossils with soft tissue (squishy) in them.

There are multiple dozens of eyewitnesse accounts of dino sightings. Alexander the Great; Marco Polo; Pliny; St. Georgee; and, Herodotus are just a few of reputable humans who have seen Dinos; yet, open-minded evolutionists reject these observations.

Reliefs, etchings, and drawings of Dinos on pottery, rocks, an caves are also rejected by them, even though they were done before science even knew what Dinos look like

What we observe is that humans produce humans; dogs produce dogs; dolphins produce dolphins; and, oak trees produce oak trees.

In other words, kind produce same kind. Anything else is just wishful thinkin. And, wishful thinking is exactly what evolutionists base their views on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2019 12:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2019 1:57 PM candle2 has responded

    
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