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Member (Idle past 2165 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6630 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.1 |
In that some organisms may have developed an evolutionary mechanism by random mutation that allows them to identify and combat parasites by incorporating a portion of the invaders genome into their own thereby allowing them and their offspring to quickly identify like invaders and have responses ready that were already learned by random mutation and selection. The mechanism appears to be specific to specific classes of pathogens and thus can be called dedicated. The evolved processes have been developed and put in place by random trial and error over many millions of years and are thus now non-randomly invoked by the presence of the specific pathogens. None of this in any way indicates any directed intelligence performing predetermined modifications to the host genome for specific pre-need purposes.
None whatsoever.
That does seem to be your purpose here. What changes do you think your references would require of the Modern Synthesis?
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zi ko Member (Idle past 2851 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Where are the data of this trial and error procedure? Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6630 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.1 |
You answer my question first and I'll answer yours in kind.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 2851 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
This question is not adressed to me. So what answer can i give? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Percy Member Posts: 20746 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
This is a reference to evolution. Evolution by means of descent with modification and natural selection is a trial and error process. Trials are performed on random modifications, selection weeds out the "errors". --Percy
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zi ko Member (Idle past 2851 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Are there ny data that exclude any information participation in procedure of evolution? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.
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Percy Member Posts: 20746 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
When scientists purposefully omit data from consideration in order to promote their own personal agenda they're always very careful to make sure it can't be detected. Seriously, an information theoretic perspective is just one among many, and it isn't often the best one. For most problems in evolutionary theory, approaching them at the information theoretic level would be like calculating the path of a rolling ball through an analysis at the atomic level. I share your fascination with information theory, but it isn't the best solution for every problem. --Percy
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6630 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.1 |
In a broad sense the "information" content of the genome changes with random mutation (to include insertion, frame-shift etc.) and the resulting phenotype is matched against the "information" of the environment. The "information" in the environment determines if the "information" in the genome continues as part of the larger population or if it is lessened or eliminated from the larger population.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2165 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
I take it you agree that the papers Shapiro referred to in his book and I cited on this board re CRISPR System is a process of nonrandom mutations for fitness. If so does this process fit into the theory of evolution as it is known today?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2165 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
What I am saying is that the whole process of evolution may in fact be planned. But if in fact the process of evolution is planned then it still can be a natural process, planned by a Supernatural being.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 200 days) Posts: 10332 From: London England Joined: |
The invisible hand of Zeus could be manipulating every ecoli experiment in order to dupe us into thinking that ecoli bacteria evolve. Likewise undetectable gravity gremlins could be manipulating reality to fool us into thinking that space-time curvature is responsible for gravitational effects. Obviously I cannot prove that, nor can you disprove it. So I guess these conclusions are as valid as the ones you are advocating?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2165 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Not trying to be a jerk, but can you show by data that the processes have been developed and put in place by RANDOM TRIAL AND ERROR over many millions of years and are thus now nonrandomly invoked by the presence of the specific pathogens? Or is this merely the assumption that that is how evolution works?
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jar Member Posts: 33890 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
If it is a natural process then no supernatural being need apply.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Wounded King Member (Idle past 3326 days) Posts: 4149 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Joined: |
I don't think the question of fitness for any particular CRISPR incorporation event can be evaluated on the basis of the papers discussed so far. Certainly it is easy to appreciate how a defence system against bacteriophages in general should be beneficial to a bacterial population.
It isn't clear however to what extent any particular protospacer sequence will be an effective substrate for the CRISPR system to combat bacteriophage infection. The sequences the review discusses are ones already established in various bacterial populations, in other words they are ones that have already passed through several rounds of natural selection. It may be that when a bacterial population is subject to a challenge from bacteriophage infection its constituent bacteria will incorporate dozens or hundreds of different spacer sequences depending on the prevalence of the particular PAM motifs that the CRISPR loci in the population targets. If a particular spacer sequence confers immunity to the bacteriophage challenge we would expect it to proliferate in the population. But we can't simply assume that all spacer sequences confer the same degree of immunity or even any immunity at all. I'll have a look in some of the other CRISPR papers and see if there is anything about this. As it stands though I don't think we can say that every CRISPR locus spacer incorporation is a beneficial mutation even though we have specific instances where they have been. TTFN, WK
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6630 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.1 |
I have a thick skin. No 'jerk' assumed. If you comprehended the papers you have been citing you would have answered your own question. All of them cite the usual and customary mechanisms to evolve what can now be seen as embedded non-random responses to external stimuli. Similar, indeed, to the evolved non-random responses some people have to certain plant pollen: blind chemical cascades evolved to fight the effects of some specifically irritating external stimuli.
If you comprehended the papers you have been citing you would see the error in your statement.
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