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Author Topic:   A general discussion of debate (goals)
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 42 of 57 (364558)
11-18-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
11-16-2006 9:20 PM


There is an absolute existence that we try to describe through our system of beliefs. Where our beliefs differ from observable fact, it is necessary for us to alter our beliefs to fit the facts.
I don't think this is how a scientist approaches a topic. A more accurate statement would be...
There is an empirical existence that we try to describe via theories of how observed phenomena relate to each other. Because we are trying to describe the world as we sense it, where our theories conflict with observation (sensation), it is necessary to alter our theories to account for the new observation.
The idea that our empirical existence is related or accurate to an absolute existence is a philosophical (metaphysical) position and not scientific.
I think this is where Percy is coming from. A fundamentalist scientist could easily accept the above (altered) statement and work well as a scientist, while on a philosophical level feel (have faith) there is some disconnect between the empirical and absolute (temporary from a failed perspective or permanent for some other reason).
I agree that some scientists DO approach science in the way you describe, but they are in error. I also agree that some (perhaps most) creos approach science in the way you describe them as doing, but they are also in error (which seems to be what Percy is arguing).
I think there are people on both sides that simply will not listen to reason, nor entertain scientific methods or conclusions on a variety of topics. Errant creos are simply easier to spot as they are gathered around a specific subject to throw out scientific method. And they do so more readily.
My initial intention at EvC was to specifically engage in debate with ID theorists to get more information on their movement and arguments. It widened to working on my debate/writing skills in general, as well as promoting proper logic and scientific method in general. Ironically some of the most fervent "defenders" of science have been the most atrocious in its misuse and misunderstanding on subjects beyond direct EvC topics.
I think it is worth continuing debate for all of the reasons mentioned by others, REGARDLESS of whether a specific individuals will change their minds about something:
1) It improves one's base of knowledge and skill in writing
2) Some may actually change their position as they increase their base of knowledge
3) You yourself may actually change your position as you increase your base of knowledge
4) Others who are not involved with direct debate may come to understand something they would not otherwise.

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 11-16-2006 9:20 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 45 of 57 (364564)
11-18-2006 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2006 12:40 PM


Re: The Debate
There is nothing, not even a crackpot religion, which requires you to be so stupid and so arrogant and so lethal to other people.
I have a science background and am not anti-vaccination, but I have no understanding where this conclusion is coming from.
Why is choosing to allow a person (presumably onesself or one's child) to be exposed to disease as they naturally would stupid, arrogant, or lethal? It is a risk to be sure, but then offset by some emotional gain that is valid for them, regardless of whether you feel it.
Perhaps in the vein of this thread, are you open to changing your mind on this subject, and if not is continued debate worthy?

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2006 12:40 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2006 2:15 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 51 of 57 (364592)
11-18-2006 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2006 2:15 PM


Re: The Debate
As to whether it is "stupid, arrogant, or lethal" to decide that an innocent child should run this risk for the sake of someone else's "emotional gain"
The simple choices of where to live, using a car instead of walking, or having one's kids take physical sports opens an "innocent child" to such risks for someone else's "emotional gain".
We are off topic, but if you want to start a new thread, I am perfectly prepared to defend the position that it is better for people not to die of preventable diseases.
My question was not whether you were prepared to defend your position. It was whether you were open to changing your mind, and if not would continuing the debate be worthy?
As I said, I am not personally an anti-vaccination person. I could easily argue why (for most vaccines) it makes sense. However I can understand that others may have different sets of values which do not make it "better" to use vaccines and are not "stupid, arrogant, or lethal". Science certainly can't determine what is objectively "better" for anyone to do.
I'm not interested in a huge debate but it seems PD is willing. My own contribution would only be to point out there are other ways to live, and parents do have a right to make such decisions regarding their children.
Edited by holmes, : clarity

holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2006 2:15 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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