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| Author | Topic: Supernatural and undiscovered means of detection | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Theodoric Member  Posts: 5914 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
I recently had a conversation with a friend that claims to be an atheist, but has strong beliefs in the supernatural. He claims there is proof ghosts exist and such. His argument is that we just have not invented the means to detect them. His favorite argument is that at one time we could not detect quarks, but now we can. I have tried to explain that a basic difference here is that quarks are something that science predicted and then were later explained in a more concrete manner. For ghosts there are no scientific predictions. Does anyone have any ideas of how to continue to counter this argument of his, or does anyone support his argument? P.S. Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Admin Director  Posts: 12578 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 2190 days)  Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=BFA8FA3...
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 2799 days)  Posts: 365 From: on High Joined:
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Ok, let's start off with his assertion of "proof exists." From what I gather, it's "Proof exists 'somewhere'." As it's his belief: "I believe proof exists somewhere." But he doesn't believe we have the proof (beyond our means to detect), so: "I believe proof exists somewhere (out of my perception)." But beliefs should be based on perception, so his belief of "proof exists" translates to: "I perceive proof exists somewhere out of my perception." But if it's out of his perception then he isn't perceiving it. So we see that this is just his imagination. "Somewhere out there there is proof I'm a frog. So I must be a frog!" People use magical terms -- placeholder concepts. "Ghost" is one of these. It is an explanation of, "I have no explanation," that pretends to be more. Just like "Goddidit."
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frako Member  Posts: 2813 From: slovenija Joined: |
Well one word or 2 word long evp's can be discarded as the brain trying to find a pattern in all the static. Tough there are some evs that would raise any skeptics eyebrows fully worded 5 word or more sentences in direct correlation with the questions asked. Those are hard to dismiss as the brain trying to form patterns out of pure static, tough that does not mean that they are voices of ghosts, there are numerous other explanations for what those voices could be, one of those explanations is that its ghosts. Tough currently we cant say what they are not enough evidence to say for sure that the voices come from ghosts, that the voices are imprints of events captured on matter.... More testing should be done tough its hard to find someone that is willing to do it and is objective <--(does not have a preconceived notion that these are ghosts, .....)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Your friend is not giving you an argument for believing in ghosts. He believes in ghosts and is explaining to you why your contrary arguments and evidence do not dissuade him. Further, you cannot really provide evidence that there are no ghosts. I would proceed by exploring the reasons for his believe in ghosts. Perhaps something will turn up that you can address. I doubt that the real reason for his belief in ghosts is EVP.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 5914 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Exactly. I asked him for evidence for ghosts and he said EVP is evidence. He and his wife think a ghost lives in their house, because of odd sounds. Also, they say things are moved when no one around. I offered to investigate scientifically and surprisingly they refuse. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
"When it comes through your door
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Theodoric Member Posts: 5914 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Is this ghost something that alarms your friend or do he and his wife want to keep the spirit around? Assuming that your friend does not want the ghost, perhaps you can offer him some advice for setting up his own scientific investigation.
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Taz Member (Idle past 1336 days)  Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
I'll be frank. Speaking as a skeptic, I have to accept the possibility of the existence of ghosts. Your 'excuse' about quarks is unfounded. Not every discovery made by science is previously predicted. In fact, many discoveries go unnoticed until they were needed. Take anti-biotics, for example. It was discovered by accident and lightly tossed aside. Some 20 years later, people had to look for a way to fight bacterial infections because soldiers were dying left and right in the trenches of WW1. Someone discovered the notes from the biologist years before and made use of it. The point is just because something wasn't predicted by conventional science doesn't mean it can't exist. Personally, I think your friend is a loon. But by denying outright the existence of ghosts for absolutely no valid reason, you are little better than the loons you're trying to disprove.
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pfrankinstein Junior Member (Idle past 2491 days) Posts: 5 Joined: |
By direct abstraction. Interestingly, the agnostic could level the same 'loon' accusation at both the Christan and atheist. Paul. Edited by pfrankinstein, : learning the ropes.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 5914 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
You miss a huge point. There was a scientific concept of medicine and the development of new medications. The discovery of anti-biotics was based on previous scientific knowledge. Show me any existing scientific knowledge that shows that anything supernatural exists. You seem to be buying into the psuedoskeptic argument. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Taz Member (Idle past 1336 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Ok, let me get this straight. Are you saying that anything that has never been previously predicted by mainstream science cannot possibly exist?
(1) If we truly follow this statement of yours, science would never make any progress whatsoever. One of the strongest basis of science is that it allows for things we haven't thought of or haven't discovered yet to exist. (2) It seems to be a popular thing nowadays to label something as supernatural or label someone as a conspiracy theorist in order to discredit them. (3) Do you have anything to say at all beside "it's supernatural, therefore it must not exist"? Do you see the problem here? First, you assume that anything that is supernatural must not exist. Then you assume that ghosts are supernatural. Do you see a problem with your conclusion here?
And what would this pseudoskeptic argument be? I'm vastly interested to know. You, sir, are the reason why so many people misunderstand science and it's skeptical nature.
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ringo Member  Posts: 16136 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.1 |
A library allows for new books to be brought in but they aren't really a "part of" the library until we can predict where they will fit into the cataloging system. If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
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