Original Topic:
The Atheist Experience #702 from March 27, 2011, with Matt Dillahunty and Russell Glasser. Interview with Ray Comfort. Matt and Russell have a conversation "across the divide" with professional apologist Ray Comfort.
Fast Forward.
I've recently revisited Ray Comfort in my quest to judge the sincerity and appeal of some of the modern apologists out there.
Ray endured humiliation for his bananaman persona, immortalized by dr.Richard Dawkins and other prominent atheists. He gained my respect by the way he marketed his humiliation and turned out more popular and controversial than ever.
Granted, Rays arguments would not hold up intellectually in any serious debate. Matt Dillahunty showed that in the opening discussion in this topic. Ray recently exploited his growing coverage as a direct result of ridicule from the banana skit.
What I like about Ray is that he comes across as honest and genuine, using his personality to spread his message. Intellectual? Not so much. Persuasive? Perhaps a bit. He seems honest.
Social Media Skills? I give him a 9 out of 10. He knows how to market.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
I haven't researched the genre as you have but there have got to be more honest intellectual apologists in the field somewhere. You shouldn't have to reach that deep into the barrel to find the support you seek.
There are many who impress me more. One I have been listening to recently is Greg Koukl. https://www.youtube.com/user/STRvideos His website is called Stand To Reason.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
No compendre. Whats an Egress? This is what I got...
egress —res noun noun egress the action of going out of or leaving a place. a way out. departure leaving exit withdrawal retreat pullout exodus issue emergence flowing out escape emanation debouchment vacation of a place the right or freedom to come out or go out. another term for emersion. verb verb egress 3rd person present egresses past tense egressed past participle egressed gerund or present participle egressing go out of or leave (a place). Powered by Google Dictionary
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
I totally understand your reference to conmen. You seem to always couple it with apologists. But why not Sam Harris? Why not Dr.Richard Dawkins? Why not any number of people who travel the lecture circuit primarily to plug their books?
And let's look at the men we are mentioning:
quote:Phineas Taylor Barnum (/brn’m/; July 5, 1810 — April 7, 1891) was an American showman, politician, and businessman remembered for promoting celebrated hoaxes and for founding the Barnum & Bailey Circus (1871—2017).[1] He was also an author, publisher, and philanthropist, though he said of himself: "I am a showman by profession ... and all the gilding shall make nothing else of me".[2] According to his critics, his personal aim was "to put money in his own coffers."[2] He is widely credited with coining the adage "There's a sucker born every minute",[3] although no proof can be found of him saying this.
OK, fair enough. A showman. Had many mansions. Let's examine the correlation.
To be fair, some of the prominent TV Evangelists have huge mansions and private jets. They have no conscience against earning large amounts of money. Their Christian character could quite fairly be called up for examination. That much I agree with.
The same pattern applies to Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis and several other prominent Word Of Faith megachurch Pastors. The correlation to PT Barnum is unmistakable. But jar. All of them? C'mon...quit assuming that anyone in the business of 501C3 tax-exempt status that has a ministry or spiritual business is in it for the money. You critics are unforgiving! I still remember Theodoric being absolutely resolute in his portrayal of Ravi Zacharias for an incident which I fail to see as incriminating. The evidence seems to show that Zacharias is a legitimate minister, though having no college degrees as he once claimed honorary ones to add prestige to his title. Which was admittedly a mistake. But hardly not worthy of jumping to the PT Barnum or swindler accusations.
Ray Comforts Ministries offer a lot of resources for free===no charge---to the public. They seem to be legitimate unless you critics are challenging the tax-exempt status of all ministries. In which case you better strip the secular ones of tax-exempt status as well. Like the flippin Boy Scouts, for crying out loud!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
Bring me one that says "The God in Genesis 1 is not the same God as in Genesis 2&3 and the Serpent told the truth while God lied."
But that wouldn't be an apologist.
quote:apologist An apologist is a person who argues in favor of something unpopular. If you're an apologist for deep sea oil drilling, you would argue that drilling in the ocean is necessary and the benefits make up for any environmental damage.
Apologists tend to be seen in a negative light, as defensive people who make excuses. The word apologist comes from the Greek word apologia, meaning "speaking in defense." Not all apologists are bad news; some just defend an unpopular idea. Even though apologist is similar to apology, don't confuse them if you make an apology you're admitting to being wrong. But if you're an apologist, you justify your belief or action, and would do it all again!
In that line of definition, you yourself are an apologist...though I would argue that you are not defending God and Jesus the way that I understand them. You are defending the "reality" of what the bible says...even if it is unpopular. (Which it is) and I don't agree with your defense because it does not support my case for a God and a Jesus who existed long before humans even evolved enough to imagine these sort of things.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
I do not support my position, rather what is actually written in the Bible supports my position.
And what does God say to you?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
what does honesty have to do with my pointing out what is actually written in the Bible Stories?
Because you stubbornly cling to the title of being a Christian when the fact remains that you teach the Bible without giving it the credit that generations of Christian teachers have given it. You basically conclude that any teaching in the books shows us what *we* are charged to do and that God (and Jesus) are mere characters in the stories. Sorry, Charlie but this is a dishonest representation of Christianity in general. Remind me to come and speak to your club.
Apologetics writes:
Today, there is an assault on the inerrancy of Scripture that tells us the bible is a mixture of both truth and error. ultimately, however, this reflects a low view not only of Scripture but also of God. If God is the source of all truth and His Word is truth (John 17:17), to say that He gave us a bible full of errors is to cast doubt on His character. Inerrancy does not mean the bible speaks with scientific precision, but it does mean that what it does teach is wholly true.
And I am sure that you will challenge this assertion. Yes, jar you do have a sound argument. But let's discuss it.
jar writes:
How can I know it is God talking to me? Further, what does that have to do with what is actually written in the Bible?
Lets set aside the argument of what is actually written (for a moment). You are not the only person who has read the bible, after all.
Let's get back to the topic of jar vs the "other" apologists.
jar writes:
But what I actually say is so far I see no evidence that any apologist is not a sham and snake-oil salesman. I don't doubt that many might even believe the snake oil really has medicinal properties but they never seem to test their product to find out if it really is medicinal.
OK, first of all, what is their "product"? For the sake of argument, lets say that their product is to convince people that Jesus is alive and that GOD wants to have a personal relationship with them. We need to ask ourselves if this is
1) A realistic product? (Yes, it has absolutely no liability! ) 2) A desired product? (This gets to the issue of why *you* never desired it. I suspect it is because you valued what you were taught...namely that honor and personal responsibility were preferable to a free lunch, a decoder ring, and a get-out-of-hell free card.)
jar writes:
How can I know it is God talking to me?
One could ask themselves how many possible voices could be in their mind at the same time. If we turn off the TV, the radio, the internet, and quit reading the fake news (or even the real news) we may clear a few of them up. Now...alone in your room, do you ever kneel down and pray? Talk to God? Or do you consider this silly and unproductive?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
im a bit confused. Explain to me how one can pray and not be having a conversation/dialogue or even monologue with God? I'm guessing that you are meditating on what *you* could do that day to help someone. Which is commendable. May God be with you.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
So you are essentially claiming that throughout History, anyone and everyone who was perceived as being close to God, in reality, had no clue who they were talking to and if in fact, they were talking to anyone, right? In addition, anyone who thought they heard wisdom or insight through prayer was in fact delusional. Got it. And why did you claim to be a Christian again? Oh, thats right...you belonged to an established church and were officially certified by them. Got it. And so you essentially teach that God is unknowable and that we are charged to do our best according to our own moral compass regarding right and wrong...which IIRC was a great gift received by humanity symbolically in the tales of Mythos. Got it.
You are teaching people to essentially throw God away. I knew it. Whats scary is that no one can stop you from damaging the faith of many weaker individuals. Iano once said that you were essentially a fifth columnist. Now I see what he meant. So what's the difference between what you do and what a secular humanist atheist does by belonging to the rotary club? And I still think it is a bastardization of terms to call yourself a Christian and yet advocate throwing God away. Maybe you and the rotary club can feed a few people, carry in groceries for older neighbors, and spread this secular teaching among the masses in your fight against Biblical Christianity and what you perceive as willful ignorance.
God might be proud of you, but I highly doubt it.
Of course, then again He might be angry at me also. And i can no more throw Him away than could I throw away Oxygen or Gravity or Consciousness.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
I have asked at least once on this board "How can anyone know they are close to God or that they were talking to God.
And no one has ever offered an answer.
Perhaps there is no answer. As a Christian, why do you fight and debate your own people? How can one be a Christian and not know God? Isn't it obvious that it is a belief and not an objective proof?
jar writes:
And I have said at least once on this board that it is the content that is significant rather than the source. If someone comes up with a wise thought then that is good regardless of whence came that wisdom.
Now you have moved the goalposts. In my mind, it would be more proper to label someone who believed that wisdom could come from many sources as a philosopher or spiritually minded person. A Christian by definition would believe that such wisdom came from GOD or at best arose from a conversation about the God defined through one of several Creeds...(we always referred to the Nicene Creed in our past arguments)
We established that Christianity was but a belief. It has never been shown to be an objective fact. Moreover, subjectively it has wandered all over the map. You yourself even say that God is logically unknowable and that Jesus may never have existed and in fact has no need to exist as..(how did you put it?) even if the stories were simply tales told 'round a campfire, they still had value. Which in my mind is more philosophical than Biblically Christian. Furthermore, why is the content more valuable than the source? In the Beginning GOD...seems, more source focused than content-focused. You may disagree, defending the plain reading of the Bible as content-based. But I might point out that what is happening is simple philosophy. Without the source, you don't have any light.
Who else can carry in groceries?
Point taken. It is *we* who represent the content...or as ringo likes to say, "The Message." This supports your argument that Heaven will hypothetically be filled with more diverse people than simply those who claim to be Christians and children of the Source.
My whole argument is that you confuse the issue by focusing only on content and defending the idea that the Source can never be validated. Who do you pray to? Yourself???
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
Your brash statement bothered me a bit, so I looked up other opinions. God forbid I am praying wrong!
One thing prayer is most certainly not and that is simple meditation on how you can do better. The whole point of Christianity is that He must increase and we must decrease. You deify yourself by keeping your focus on what you can do.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
So a Christian can only gain wisdom through God, not through experience or evidence or environment or ...?
Or what? Mencius?
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
The Bible talks of true wisdom as coming from the Spirit. (Holy Spirit) You claim to belong to some Socratic Club of critical thinking and secular wisdom.(and call it Christianity) But without the Holy Spirit, you are nothing more than a philosopher.
Lets compare your boy Mencius with traditional Christianity:
quote:World Religions: A Voyage of Discovery
Comparing and Contrasting Confucianism with Christianity
Jesus Christ is the Savior of humankind according to Christian belief. We human beings cannot save ourselves, because all of our attempts to do so are caught up in the sinfulness from which we need to be saved. Confucians, in contrast, do not see Confucius as a savior figure at all. Confucius thought humankind is naturally good rather than sinful and believed that with proper education and upright, skillful leadership, people are fully capable of achieving a good and moral life. In other words, people need training, encouragement, and education rather than salvation.
Christians, including Catholic Christians, hold a variety of beliefs about the truth of religions other than their own. When it comes to religious practice, however, the majority of Christians practice only Christianity. This having been said, we must note that there are a whole host of different ways in which Christianity is practiced, influenced by cultural variables as well as by the interpretation of Sacred Scripture and Church Tradition, along with people’s personal preferences. Confucians, however, assume that their religious practice will be informed by the variety of religious traditions found in East Asia, including folk religions, Taoism, Shinto, and Buddhism. They see no conflict between them, understanding them as knit together into a cultural whole that transcends the discrete religions.
Most Christians believe the Bible is a part of God’s Revelation and refer to it as the Word of God. It has been and continues to be, transmitted through the Christian Church. Confucians also have books at the core of their tradition, including the Analects, the Book of Mencius, and the Great Learning. These books and others similar to them are regarded as having been written or assembled by wise human beings, or sages, rather than being divinely inspired.
The principal route of transmission through the ages has been through the formal educational system. The strength of Confucius’s own character also informs the Confucian way of religion. He is an example of the ideal human being, as is Jesus for Christian faith.
This pamphlet supports my theory that your Christianity was formed through Sacred Studies and that you took your ideas from all religions. It is why you scoff at the notion of "getting saved or enlightened through salvation and support the idea of enlightenment through education, as the Confucian philosophy supports.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
No one can know they are saved while they are still alive.
No one can know they are talking with God, either. One can believe that God is quite capable of communion. One can believe that God cares about them. You will ask why God should care about me any more than pond scum...and I will reply that I have no idea, but that I believe that God cares about humans. One does not have to be a traveling conman in order to espouse the idea that God loves us and wants communion with us.
You may ask how do I know if its God talking or a bad burrito. I will say that I dont know in the strict definition of the term, but that I would expect a Deity to be fully capable of doing so. You believe that all of this belief about salvation and having a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe is a giant swindle. I dont know where you became so skeptical, apart from watching people such as Swaggert, Robinson, Falwell, and the modern counterparts swindle the masses. Yet all that you have established is that there are many conmen in Christianity. There is no reason to dismiss the basic teaching unless you have a personal repugnance to it, as you seem to have. Its how you were taught, I suppose.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
Are you possibly under the impression that you can do something to increase God?
Not at all. God is already infinite so there is no possible way that He can increase in size or power. What I mean is that the less junk I have in my soul, the more room there is in me for the Holy Spirit to magnify Himself.
And to teach and humble me.
Are you under the impression that I should expect the Holy Jeeves to make my breakfast?
No, but I would expect you to be wise enough to realize that you cant do everything yourself. You told me that I likely had no idea what prayer actually is. Perhaps you can share your theory. You may believe that there is no way that you can know if you are even talking to God and if He is listening, but would you not agree that he is fully capable of doing so and that if you are honestly seeking communion with Him that He wouldn't let a devil or a bad burrito fool you and sabotage His plan for communion?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
I'm sorry Phat but there is one major reason to dismiss the marketing of salvation and that is the simple fact that it is impossible for any of the people marketing salvation to even know if there is even ANYTHING in the bottle they are selling.
Do any Pastors, Priests, or teachers ever actually know that the God of whom they speak is actually real? Does this stop them? Is not the intention and motive important? Billy Graham believed every word that he ever spoke publically. He impacted a lot of people. Honesty is important. You tell us to throw God away. Do you honestly 100% believe that this is good advice...for anyone and everyone? If so, explain why. I think you may say something along the lines of "there is no way anyone can ever know that they know God and the evidence shows God is not feeding, clothing, or comforting anyone...therefore we must focus on what WE do and throw the necessity of a skydaddy away. But let me ask you this: Do you know that humans cant commune with God? Do you know that God can't or won't speak to our conscience through prayer, meditation, and in the context of thoughtful actions(such as feeding people)? Why would you risk alienating yourself from the creator simply because you have no evidence of a communion?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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