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Author Topic:   Ray Comfort on The Atheist Experience
PaulK
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Posts: 17071
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Message 7 of 146 (610512)
03-30-2011 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by New Cat's Eye
03-30-2011 11:23 AM


That was Ray Martinez.

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 Message 4 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-30-2011 11:23 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

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PaulK
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Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 91 of 146 (865129)
10-21-2019 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
10-21-2019 6:50 AM


Re: Source vs Content
I’ve observed Protestant communion and Catholic mass. There’s no significant difference between them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 10-21-2019 6:50 AM Faith has responded

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PaulK
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Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 93 of 146 (865132)
10-21-2019 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
10-21-2019 7:18 AM


Re: Source vs Content
That’s an obvious example of moving the goalposts. If mass and communion are so different why isn’t there an observable difference?

Does it really come down to the doctrine of Transubstantiation? Because that’s just a belief derived from taking the Bible too literally.


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 Message 92 by Faith, posted 10-21-2019 7:18 AM Faith has responded

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 96 of 146 (865138)
10-21-2019 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
10-21-2019 8:07 AM


Re: Source vs Content
quote:
I hadn't equated it with transubstantiation, I thought there was more of a ritual involved, but yes I suppose it is the same issue.

It might be a bit more ritualistic but it is a ritual, whether you call it communion or mass.

quote:
That being the case, historically Protestants were willing to die rather than accept that Catholic definition, so it's not a trivial thing and you certainly can't say Protestants also practice Mass.

People are willing to die over trivial things. And it seems that you aren’t aware of any significant differences....

quote:
.... there is no sacrificing of Christ over and over in Protestant churches, that is what is considered to be blasphemous,

What exactly are you talking about? If you mean the symbolic eating of the bread and drinking the wine Protestants do so it.

quote:
... plus the definition of the communion elements as actual flesh and blood.

That IS Transubstantiation. It’s also just a silly Catholic belief. Hardly something that justifies your claims.


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PaulK
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Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 105 of 146 (865182)
10-21-2019 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
10-21-2019 4:57 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Since you’ve just labelled the Lutheran’s a “Catholic offshoot” and “not Protestant” may we take it that you no longer consider Luther one of the Reformers ?

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PaulK
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Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 115 of 146 (865216)
10-22-2019 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
10-21-2019 11:40 PM


Re: Reality still says you are wrong!
The main differences all seem to be doctrinal. Ideas about mass/communion. Not the sacrament itself.

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 Message 114 by Faith, posted 10-21-2019 11:40 PM Faith has responded

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PaulK
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Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 117 of 146 (865219)
10-22-2019 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
10-22-2019 12:40 AM


Re: Reality still says you are wrong!
As I said I’ve observed both and there are no major differences. The big differences - including the bit about “Jesus being sacrificed over and over again” are just ideas about what it means. (And I will point out that I had to research that myself because you wouldn’t or couldn’t explain it)

So there is no real objection to the Catholic mass as such. The objection is to Catholic ideas about it.


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 Message 116 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 12:40 AM Faith has responded

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 119 of 146 (865221)
10-22-2019 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
10-22-2019 12:59 AM


Re: Reality still says you are wrong!
It’s a matter of truth. If you say that you object to the Catholic mass when you mean that you object to Catholic ideas about mass you are not telling the truth.
and I would say that the difference between Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation is trivial. And from a truly Christian perspective it would be, too.

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 Message 118 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 12:59 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 120 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 1:29 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 121 of 146 (865225)
10-22-2019 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
10-22-2019 1:29 AM


Re: Protestant Mass is not Catholic Mass, get it straight
quote:
What am I "wrong" about? You think you can rewrite history or what?

I explained it, and I certainly am not trying to rewrite history. Ideas about mass and what it means are not the mass itself. You don’t really believe that Transubstantiation actually happens at Catholic masses, do you ?

quote:
Maybe I'm not doing the best job of that but you certainly cannot rewrite what the Reformation actually said and churches that follow the Reformers believe and do.

Perhaps you would like to list these things I am supposed to be rewriting. And quote me making the attempt.

quote:
What's your point? It's silly.

My point is that beliefs about a sacrament are not the sacrament itself. And that some of these beliefs are quite silly and unimportant. Like both Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation.


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 Message 120 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 1:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 2:21 AM PaulK has responded
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17071
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 123 of 146 (865228)
10-22-2019 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
10-22-2019 2:21 AM


Re: Protestant Mass is not Catholic Mass, get it straight
quote:
I don't think I get your point at all. The reality is never the words about the reality but the words lead you into it

The point is simple. Since Transubstantiation is simply an erroneous idea about mass it is not a genuine difference between Protestant communion and Catholic mass.

quote:
Transubstantiation into real flesh and blood is ludicrous.

Indeed. And Consubstantiation - the idea that Jesus flesh and Blood are literally present alongside the bread and wine - is hardly less so.

quote:
However, when I was reading the Catholic mystics I was very impressed with their sense of experiencing the real presence of Christ when they had the bread and wine

I don’t think that spiritual experiences are meant to be dependent on a physical presence.

quote:
And having said this I'll also say that I think the interpretation that came from Zwingli I believe, that it is purely symbolic, does miss the point that we can actually experience the Spirit of Christ in communion. It's more than symbolic.

I don’t see how taking the bread and wine as being symbolically human flesh and blood rather than literally so (in some completely indetectable sense) does anything to lessen any spiritual experience that may accompany the rite. Indeed I’d say the opposite. The insistence on supernatural manifestations cheapens the experience.

quote:
Alnd all these doctrinal differences matter a great deal.

Really? Why? Where in Jesus’ teachings is there anything that says that you have to be right about these arcane teachings?


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 Message 122 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 2:21 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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