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Author Topic:   Ray Comfort on The Atheist Experience
Theodoric
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Posts: 6799
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 76 of 146 (865029)
10-20-2019 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Thugpreacha
10-20-2019 2:59 AM


Re: Source vs Content
Many people have given their lives for a multitude of stupid pointless reasons. It means nothing.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-20-2019 2:59 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
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Posts: 7123
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 77 of 146 (865032)
10-20-2019 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
10-20-2019 5:22 AM


Re: Source vs Content
quote:
The Catholic stuff does go too far but you are including all of Christianity and your view is so far from our view of it there's just nothing to say.

Oh yeh?

Then you'll be surprised to hear that at every Christian mass several times a day all across the world you Christians get on your knees and eat Christ's flesh and drink his blood - in memory of his death an crucifixion. It's horrific. If it was invented today, it would be outlawed.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 10-20-2019 5:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 10-20-2019 6:35 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
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Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 78 of 146 (865033)
10-20-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
10-20-2019 9:13 AM


Re: Source vs Content
OK, I see your point. What threw me off was that word...pointless. This is why I think that acknowledgment of the Source is more important than simply doing the content. Think of the early Christians. Were they likely extreme proselytes? Did they actively attempt to convert others? It certainly is much riskier to attempt to do such a thing in a hostile culture. Now...we have several questions to consider. First, do you see any evidence that the early Christians were extreme proselytes> If so, why? Second, if they merely kept to themselves and attempted to live out the message by helping their neighbors, would this be why Christianity spread slowly and uneventfully before Constantine and also through fear of the hostile culture? Finally, do you see the establishment of Christianity as stae religion and state policy a license for the evil of the dominant culture to *use* Christianity for nefarious ends?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 9:13 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 3:19 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 79 of 146 (865067)
10-20-2019 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Thugpreacha
10-20-2019 12:46 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Phat writes:

This is why I think that acknowledgment of the Source is more important than simply doing the content.

Sorry, you say stuff like the above but never actually explain why it is important to acknowledge the source.

If Satan says take this medicine and it will cure your inability to know what is good and bad and the medicine works does it matter that the source was Satan?

AbE:

Phat writes:

First, do you see any evidence that the early Christians were extreme proselytes

More than the Jews since Jews do not proselytize.

Phat writes:

Second, if they merely kept to themselves and attempted to live out the message by helping their neighbors, would this be why Christianity spread slowly and uneventfully before Constantine and also through fear of the hostile culture?

Sure. The message really offered few reasons to adopt. You yourself have said that to live Jesus message is not an attractive alternative.

Phat writes:

Finally, do you see the establishment of Christianity as stae religion and state policy a license for the evil of the dominant culture to *use* Christianity for nefarious ends?

Not exactly. A State Religion carries out State Policies. Those policies can be good or bad. Christianity did many horrific things but seldom nefarious since they were legal by definition. Whether they were wicked depends on the point of view of the person judging.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-20-2019 12:46 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-20-2019 3:21 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 80 of 146 (865068)
10-20-2019 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
10-20-2019 3:19 PM


Re: Source vs Content
It would matter only in that the source I listened to defied the source that commanded me not to do it. Unless that is all meant to be part of the plot twist.

If satan says to be inclusive and God says that truth is exclusive, would I do well to listen to satan?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 3:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 3:34 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 81 of 146 (865073)
10-20-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Thugpreacha
10-20-2019 3:21 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Phat writes:

It would matter only in that the source I listened to defied the source that commanded me not to do it. Unless that is all meant to be part of the plot twist.

Stop and think. We have been through this many times.

If you do not have the capability to know right from wrong you do not have the ability to even understand the concept of "obey".

Pht writes:

If satan says to be inclusive and God says that truth is exclusive, would I do well to listen to satan?

You test the content Phat and in the Bible Jesus says to be inclusive. Sure other places have the author claiming exclusivity but in what is actually written both Jesus promotes being inclusive.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-20-2019 3:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-20-2019 3:56 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 82 of 146 (865080)
10-20-2019 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
10-20-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Source vs Content
I'm going to test your theory. I suspect that you simply mentally highlighted the parts about inclusion because you support inclusion. Jesus also had several exclusive truth claims. When Satan tempted Him in the wilderness, Satan urged Him to simply do his best, feed himself, and step into authority over the kingdoms of the world. Jesus responded by citing that obedience to His Father and the scripture took precedence over what He may have personally wanted. Of course, you have a point in that Eve could not have possibly known how to do that. So in that sense, the Fall was foreknown.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 3:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 4:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 83 of 146 (865084)
10-20-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Thugpreacha
10-20-2019 3:56 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Phat writes:

Of course, you have a point in that Eve could not have possibly known how to do that. So in that sense, the Fall was foreknown.

There is no "fall" in Genesis 2&3! Period. Read what is written. Far from a fall God says that the humans became more like him.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-20-2019 3:56 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 84 of 146 (865090)
10-20-2019 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
10-20-2019 4:07 PM


Re: Source vs Content
So do you believe that when a child grows up and leaves home they throw dad away? (In a metaphorical sense.) Do they become their own person rather than a child obeying a parent? If so, is this what you mean when you tell us to throw God away? That we simply use our own knowledge of right and wrong and make our own decisions rather than forever living under dad's rules?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 4:07 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 85 of 146 (865103)
10-20-2019 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Tangle
10-20-2019 12:00 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Catholics do mass, Christians do not. and in fact we consider it to be a blasphemy. We do take communion, however, in memory of his sacrifice for our sins. And it is also emblematic of us partaking of his nature.

Some people took it literally back at the beginning too and would have outlawed it if they could.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Tangle, posted 10-20-2019 12:00 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 8:08 PM Faith has responded
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2019 3:14 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 86 of 146 (865108)
10-20-2019 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
10-20-2019 6:35 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Faith writes:

Catholics do mass, Christians do not.

Nonsense Faith. Even Protestant Christian churches have mass. There is even a Rite of Communion.

From the Book of Common Prayer (interestingly even older than the KJV).

quote:
And we offer our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving to you, O Lord of all; presenting to you, from your creation, this bread and this wine. We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gifts that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 10-20-2019 6:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 87 of 146 (865116)
10-20-2019 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
10-20-2019 8:08 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Christians don't do Mass, it's a completely Catholic thing.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 88 of 146 (865122)
10-21-2019 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
10-20-2019 11:16 PM


Question for Faith.
quote:
Christians don't do Mass, it's a completely Catholic thing.

My memory must be going bad, because I had to investigate the "mass" issue to see what the difference was between that and Protestant practice. I remember doing this before I think (having to google to see what the difference is).

I admit I had little idea (no idea except I now remember a bit after investigating) there was a difference between Catholic and Protestant terminology.

(It is my fault, and I should have paid more attention to the differences).

QUESTION TIME:

Do you have any examples of ancient practice WHICH SHOWS THE DEBATE BETWEEN CATHOLIC-ESQUE PRACTICES AND NON-CATHOLIC "Christian" VIEWS?

(I feel bad for asking, by my memory is blank, and I don't feel like picking it too hard)

(My fault)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 10-20-2019 11:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7123
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 89 of 146 (865124)
10-21-2019 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
10-20-2019 6:35 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Faith writes:

Catholics do mass, Christians do not.

Garbage. Catholics are Christians and all Christians have mass.

quote:
Mass is the main eucharistic liturgical service in many forms of Western Christianity. The term Mass is commonly used in the Roman Catholic[1] and Anglican churches,[2] as well as in some Lutheran,[3] Methodist,[4][5] Western Rite Orthodox, and Old Catholic churches.
Other Christian denominations may employ terms such as Divine Service or worship service (and often just "service"), rather than the word Mass.[6] For the celebration of the Eucharist in Eastern Christianity, including Eastern Catholic Churches, other terms such as Divine Liturgy, Holy Qurbana, and Badarak are typically used instead.

We do take communion, however, in memory of his sacrifice for our sins.

Exactly.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 10-20-2019 6:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 10-21-2019 6:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 90 of 146 (865128)
10-21-2019 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
10-21-2019 3:14 AM


Re: Source vs Content
Mass is a service in which Christ is sacrificed over and over, and Protestants consider it to be blasphemous. As a priest Luther found himself scared to death to perform such a feat as to invoke the living God, change the wafer into the living Christ, which is what Mass does. I don't know why there is any confusion about this at all because it's historically the case that Mass is a Catholic practice rejected by Protestants. Communion in the Protestant churches is not Mass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2019 3:14 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by PaulK, posted 10-21-2019 6:58 AM Faith has responded
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