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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design explains many follies
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 121 of 302 (297348)
03-22-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by crashfrog
03-22-2006 11:11 AM


Re: Of old cities
I don't know of "any" instances where mutations have resulted in the betterment of a creature, let alone how multiple mutations result in the betterment of creatures who select other mutation partners.
Maybe you can provide some proof?

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2006 11:11 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2006 4:25 PM John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 122 of 302 (297350)
03-22-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by nwr
03-22-2006 11:41 AM


Re: Of old cities
True science is the study of cause and effect. We can study the things that exist. Where we can know how they function and understand/prove cause/effect, that is science that belongs in the science classroom.
The Theory of Evolution is not primarily a theory of how species that exist continue to function and to deal with change. The Theory of Evolution is primarily a theory of how things that exist came to exist.

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 03-22-2006 11:41 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by nwr, posted 03-22-2006 5:51 PM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 123 of 302 (297353)
03-22-2006 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by nator
03-22-2006 1:02 PM


Re: Of old cities
I don't know of any instances where mutation result in the betterment of the creature. Maybe you can provide proof examples?
Mutations are somewhat rare among creatures and are the result of a failure of DNA repair. When these failures are passed on to their offspring, this too is not betterment. To believe this is how creatures evolved to different creatures is folly.
No, we cannot physically see electrons. But the scientific principles by which electrons function are clearly known and taught in electrical engineering courses worldwide.
The same is true concerning genetics. Vast scientific progress has been made in understanding the genetics of DNA, and even how to correct DNA mistakes. If these genetic mistakes are so good, why are these genetic scientists trying so hard to correct these DNA mistakes?
When you state, "Actually, nothing in science can ever be completely proven," I don't believe very many true scientists will agree with you.

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 03-22-2006 1:02 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by NosyNed, posted 03-22-2006 4:30 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 126 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2006 4:36 PM John 10:10 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 124 of 302 (297357)
03-22-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by John 10:10
03-22-2006 3:36 PM


Re: Of old cities
I don't know of "any" instances where mutations have resulted in the betterment of a creature
One example that hits close to home is a mutation in human hemoglobin that, like sickle-cell anemia, confers resistance to malaria; but unlike sickle-cell hemoglobin, doesn't cause symptoms of anemia.
Another similar example is a mutation carried by most people of European descent that confers resistance to diseases like bubonic plague.
At the smaller end of the scale, a small mutation allowed a normally unicellular blue-green algae to form multicellular colonies, akin to volvox colonies. Various mutations in insects confer resistance to our control measures; for instance a gene for a certain enzyme was first duplicated and then modified in mosquitos by means of two seperate mutations, the resulting protein allowed the mosquitos to metabolize a certain pesticide, rendering it harmless to them.
let alone how multiple mutations result in the betterment of creatures who select other mutation partners.
"Mutation partners"? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 3:36 PM John 10:10 has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 125 of 302 (297358)
03-22-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by John 10:10
03-22-2006 4:05 PM


Getting your facts straight.
John: What would you think of me if I started critisizing the Bible and it was obvious from what I said that I had NO IDEA at all about what was contained in the Bible. If it said that it said Christians should be cannibals because someone told me that a friend told him that it said that.
Before you start critisizing something you need to have some facts straight. Your posts show that you have very close to ZERO knowledge of the science involved. Your friend's friend doesn't know what he is talking about.
Mutations are somewhat rare among creatures and are the result of a failure of DNA repair.
This is an example of needing to be sure of your facts. You have from a few to perhaps a hundred mutations. So do I. The human race alive now contains maybe 100 BILLION mutations. Mutations are not "somewhat rare" at all.
The other thing you need to do is to think things through a little bit before you post things that have answers which should be screamingly obvious. For example:
If these genetic mistakes are so good, why are these genetic scientists trying so hard to correct these DNA mistakes?
Have a go at thinking that through yourself and see if you can come up with a sensible answer before someone points it out to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 4:05 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 9:44 AM NosyNed has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 126 of 302 (297360)
03-22-2006 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by John 10:10
03-22-2006 4:05 PM


Re: Of old cities
Mutations are somewhat rare among creatures and are the result of a failure of DNA repair.
Actually mutations are so common we expect every organism to have several mutations of their very own, the precise amount depending on the number of base pairs in their genome.
You, for instance, being a human with somewhere along the lines of 5.5 billion base pairs in your genome, can be expected to have between 5 and 500 individual mutations in your genome - genetic changes that originated in the gametes of your parents that were then passed on to every single one of your cells. Each of your cells has a number of mutations you've since acquired, but only the mutations acquired by your gametic cells will be passed on to your offspring.
But the scientific principles by which electrons function are clearly known and taught in electrical engineering courses worldwide.
Well, if that's all it takes, we know that evolution is true because they teach it in biology classes.
If these genetic mistakes are so good, why are these genetic scientists trying so hard to correct these DNA mistakes?
Because a fair number of them cause disease and cancer. Not all of them; not even most of them. But a lot of them do. Mutation is not lagrely beneficial. Mostly, it's neutral. When it isn't it's often harmful. But rarely, it's beneficial, and selection operates on those mutations, increasing the number of individuals in the gene pool that possess that mutation over time.
When you state, "Actually, nothing in science can ever be completely proven," I don't believe very many true scientists will agree with you.
A quick survey of my lab shows that all the scientists here where I am agree with her. You'll find that's true of the scientists who post here, too. And as well they should - tentativity of conclusion is a well-understood and important principle of the scientific method.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 4:05 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 9:35 AM crashfrog has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 127 of 302 (297392)
03-22-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by John 10:10
03-22-2006 3:44 PM


Definitions
John 10:10 writes:
True science is the study of cause and effect.
A gross oversimplification.
The Theory of Evolution is not primarily a theory of how species that exist continue to function and to deal with change.
Christianity isn't really a way of worshipping God. Rather it is a method whereby the priestly class induces feelings of guilt as a way of controlling people.
I figure if you are going to tell scientists what their science is all about, then we should be able to tell you what your religion is all about.
This message has been edited by nwr, 03-22-2006 04:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 3:44 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 9:23 AM nwr has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 128 of 302 (297522)
03-23-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by nwr
03-22-2006 5:51 PM


Re: Definitions
If you are going to quote me, quote me in context. Here is what I said;
"True science is the study of cause and effect. We can study the things that exist. Where we can know how they function and understand/prove cause/effect, that is science that belongs in the science classroom."
The Theory of Evolution does not do this! It is primarily concerned with declaring how things evolved over time to where we are now.
It's fine to look back at things that existed from the fossil/bone records, but to draw proof conclusions from the fossil/bone records as to how things evolved over time is still folly.
As for how Christians worship God, we worship Him in Spirit and in truth (John 4:24). If you feel this induces feelings of guilt or is controlling of others, that is your wrong perception.

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by nwr, posted 03-22-2006 5:51 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Chiroptera, posted 03-23-2006 9:39 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 135 by Modulous, posted 03-23-2006 10:06 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 136 by Chiroptera, posted 03-23-2006 10:15 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 151 by nwr, posted 03-23-2006 9:41 PM John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 129 of 302 (297526)
03-23-2006 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by crashfrog
03-22-2006 4:36 PM


Re: Of old cities
To the "degree" that a scientist can understand how things that exist function, and can show cause/effect, that for most scientists is sufficient proof that the principle of cause/effect is proven.
Now I see some are backing off and using the words "completely proven."
As Bill Clinton would say, "I guess that depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is."
This message has been edited by John 10:10, 03-23-2006 12:36 PM

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2006 4:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by crashfrog, posted 03-23-2006 9:51 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 302 (297528)
03-23-2006 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by John 10:10
03-23-2006 9:23 AM


Re: Definitions
quote:
True science is the study of cause and effect.
Actually, "true science" is the study of observable phenomena, the development of theories and models to explain those phenomena, and the investigation of the implications of those theories and models.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 9:23 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 12:46 PM Chiroptera has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 131 of 302 (297534)
03-23-2006 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by NosyNed
03-22-2006 4:30 PM


Re: Getting your facts straight.
Maybe you are one of the ones who has 100 billion mutations.
The one mutation that I know I have is this:
"If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Cor 5:17).

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NosyNed, posted 03-22-2006 4:30 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ramoss, posted 03-23-2006 9:49 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 134 by NosyNed, posted 03-23-2006 9:53 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 137 by AdminJar, posted 03-23-2006 11:11 AM John 10:10 has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 132 of 302 (297536)
03-23-2006 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by John 10:10
03-23-2006 9:44 AM


Re: Getting your facts straight.
And what does that have anythign to do with 'Intelligent design'?
It is a statement of faith, but has nothign to do with I.D, or science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 9:44 AM John 10:10 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 133 of 302 (297538)
03-23-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by John 10:10
03-23-2006 9:35 AM


Re: Of old cities
Now I see some are backing off and using the words "completely proven."
Where do you see these words being used?
And did you have a reply to the rest of my post? You don't really seem to have touched on many of my points.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 9:35 AM John 10:10 has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 134 of 302 (297539)
03-23-2006 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by John 10:10
03-23-2006 9:44 AM


Re: Getting your facts straight.
What an absolute brilliant answer! Good for you. You do a good job of representing one particular part of the debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 9:44 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 135 of 302 (297545)
03-23-2006 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by John 10:10
03-23-2006 9:23 AM


Re: Definitions
"True science is the study of cause and effect. We can study the things that exist. Where we can know how they function and understand/prove cause/effect, that is science that belongs in the science classroom."
The Theory of Evolution does not do this! It is primarily concerned with declaring how things evolved over time to where we are now.
Regardless of various criticisms about what you think science is the study of - Evolution does do this. The theory of Evolution is the proposed cause of the effect that is Evolution. What caused the change in life on earth over time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 9:23 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by John 10:10, posted 03-23-2006 1:10 PM Modulous has replied

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