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Author Topic:   Going to hell? Fringe lunatics
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 56 (611412)
04-07-2011 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
04-07-2011 9:00 PM


Francis Chan comments
Jon writes:
then all christians are liars.
I wouldn't say 'all', but a great majority certainly are, and happily so, to boot.
A well known cutting edge Pastor explains what we are discussing:
Edited by Phat, : fixed

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 Message 15 by Jon, posted 04-07-2011 9:00 PM Jon has not replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 17 of 56 (611415)
04-07-2011 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
04-07-2011 11:43 AM


Judging
mike,
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." - Matthew 7:18-20
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other." - Matthew 6:24a
"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." - John 3:5-6
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." - I Corinthians 2:14
Now in the scriptures, it appears CLEAR where salvation comes from, (Jesus Christ) but at no time does it say that we have a clear dichotomy.
These passages quoted are all found in the New Testament. However, if one considers the imagery of the Old Testament, one will see quite a clear dichotomy drawn between the Church and the world. This dichotomy, once again, is drawn quite sharply in both Testaments. The Old Testament draws a very sharp dichotomy between the nation of Israel and the world around them. This nation was made to prosper when they obeyed the commandments of God, as in contrast to the nations around them, which were overthrown constantly, plagued, diseased and afflicted because of their disobedience to the sovereign God of the universe. Now this nation was, as the prophets and the writers of the New Testament assert, a model of what the New Testament Church is to be:
"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham." - Romans 9:6-7
Paul asserts here in this verse that just because a person is the seed of Abraham does not mean that they are children of Abraham (meaning spiritual children, who follow the pattern of Abraham's righteousness). Thus, he says, all who are of Israel are not necessarily Israel, that is to say, all who are in the Israelite nation are not necessarily parts of the true Israel. The true Israel consists of those people who serve Jesus Christ, who have been born of the Spirit, who have received the irresistible grace of God, and those who frame their lives according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I urge you to read Romans chapters 1-11, or at least chapters 6-9. Paul constantly uses dichotomous speech in these chapters. He makes great points of contrasting those of the Spirit and those of the flesh; those who walk according to the Law and those who practice lawlessness or unrighteousness:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible manand birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." - Romans 1:18-23
Did you read that whole passage? If not, read it all. Did you comprehend that passage? If not, please reread it until you do.
You may notice that I quoted several passages from the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). I noticed also that you quoted one from the same sermon; the famous and almost universally known, "judge not, that ye be not judged". You also said:
but to put me infront of a lovely person, who is an atheist, and expect me to even want to believe they are going to hell - this is the hardest thing for my belief system.
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
This verse establishes righteous judgment as judgment that judges not according to the appearance. This implies, then, that unrighteous judgment is judgment that judges according to the appearance. Thus, to judge that an atheist is perhaps justified because he appears lovely on the outside is to judge unrighteously. To judge him righteously would be to judge what his heart submits to: whether it submits to Christ, or to man. He who submits to Christ will profess it, and will not be known but by his master. For is the slave known by any but by his master? Not often. The master is the one who is known, and the servant is known by the master. He who is not in submission to Christ is against Christ, for:
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad." - Matthew 12:30

Am I supporting the church group who sought to horrify the funeral participants at the non-sodomite soldier's funeral by holding up horrendous signs? No. But perhaps for different reasons than you.
The Bible makes no equivocations about the lawfulness of homosexuality. It is most unambiguously wicked and unlawful. But this does not justify the actions of those demonstrations at the soldier's funeral. For one, the soldier was not a Sodomite. For another, the blood of sinners does not cause God to rejoice. All life proceeds from God, and there is no life that does not proceed from God. But God is also a just God, that is, He does not violate His standards of righteousness by allowing homosexuals to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is not to say that a repentant and redempted Sodomite cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, of course. For another, God does not necessarily judge an entire army because of some sinners within the army. At any rate, the actions of the demonstrators was obviously wickedly motivated, and was meant only to horrify and scandalize men by using blasphemous falsehoods. They did not stand for truth, nor for Jesus Christ.
This does not justify homosexuals however. No man can be justified but through Jesus Christ (note that I assume a need of justification; this need is absolutely universal).
No "particular" group is "particularly" worthy of hell, except for the "particular" group of sinners, which includes everybody who has been born of Adam. I only know of one being who is not a sinner, for they were not born of Adam: Jesus Christ. In him only then is freedom from sin, which all humans have been enslaved to.

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 04-07-2011 11:43 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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sac51495
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 18 of 56 (611417)
04-07-2011 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ICANT
04-07-2011 8:22 PM


Two laws?
ICANT,
Jesus gave two commandments the first was to love the Lord God with your entire being and the second was to love your neighbor as much as you love yourself.
Keeping in mind, of course, that He also said:
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." - Matthew 5:17
The root idea of the verb fulfill is to fill a cup to the brim, to satisfy, to make complete - to fulfill. To fulfill the Law and the Prophets then is to fill the cup, the cup being the Law and the Prophets. But one does not throw away the cup to drink and savor the liquid inside; rather, the cup is the perfect means by which they drink the savory liquid inside.
Of course, the cup is useless if there is no liquid to put in it. But the liquid is not understandable or comprehensible unless it is in the cup.
So, just a reminder to let the Law and the Prophets stand as Jesus said, so that His two commandments, though they are the sum of the Law and Prophets, do not perfectly convey to our human minds what we must do. They are the sum, but not the particulars.

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 56 (611418)
04-07-2011 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by sac51495
04-07-2011 9:32 PM


Re: Judging
... they were not born of Adam: Jesus Christ.
Huh? Say what!?

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 9:32 PM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 10:35 PM Jon has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 20 of 56 (611420)
04-07-2011 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ICANT
04-07-2011 8:22 PM


Yea, there's always that get out of jail free card for you guys: the old No True Scotsman. "They're not real christians......." For all the times I have heard that canard, there is no such thing as christianity, it seems. In order for there to be a group of people, there need to be people in that group. But since each and every one of you lot say "that guy's not a TRVE christian" and they likely say the same about you, there are NO christians.
{abe}
You find me what YOU deem to be a "true" christian and I'll find a professing christian to say otherwise. There are even sects of christianity who probably say jesus wasn't christian......oh wait, he wasn't!
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 10:41 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 21 of 56 (611423)
04-07-2011 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rahvin
04-07-2011 7:02 PM


Who gets the Kingdom?
Rahvin,
You can be a serial child rapist and murderer, you can be Hitler, literally, and if you "believe on Jesus Christ" you get into heaven.
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." - I Cor. 6:9-10
To believe in Jesus Christ means more than to merely profess with the mouth that you believe in him. To believe in Him is to have one's mind, heart, and soul completely framed around His Lordship. And His Lordship is not defined by a nebulous and meaningless bond, but by a distinct and understandable Law, spelled out in ink in both Old and New Testament.
And who are those who frame their lives around his Lordship, or who "conform to this image" of Christ?
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." - Romans 8:29
Those who are predestined, by God - from the foundations of the earth.
they create a "salvation by faith" doctrine that means it literally does not matter one bit what one does on Earth
The salvation by faith doctrine was formalized by Martin Luther and his followers and co-laborers. The doctrine was meant only to counter the doctrine of the Catholic Church in the 15th and 16th centuries that gave as the reason for justification obedience to the Law. It was one of the many controversies between the Reformers and the Papists at that time. This doctrine, however, deals only with justification, which is only the beginning of the life of a Christian. Justification has as its necessary fruit sanctification, which is defined in terms of the Law-word of God. As Jesus says, "you will know them by their fruit", the fruit being sanctification. Justification is thus not an outwardly discernible process, but its fruit is. Paul terms it well, in a continuation of the above cited verse:
"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." - Romans 8:30
This is the sequence of the process of salvation: no one component can be left out, or no salvation is effected. The first element is predestination, or election before the foundation of the world unto salvation. The calling is that eye-opening of the spirit performed by God which leads a man to place his faith in Jesus Christ. Having placed his faith in Jesus Christ (which is done only by the calling of God), the man is justified by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ performed on the cross, which vicariously pays the debt demanded by the sins of the man. Then comes the last, and essential, element: glorification. This element includes sanctification. Sanctification is the process by which men, having been justified, work towards perfection upon this earth, that perfection which is not perfectly obtained until we reach heaven, at which point the salvation process is absolutely complete, our perfection having been obtained.

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

This message is a reply to:
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sac51495
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 22 of 56 (611425)
04-07-2011 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
04-07-2011 9:43 PM


Re: Judging
Jon,
Excellent point. This points to a well-known but essential theological principle: the incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ exists, always has existed, and always will exist as fully God. He exists first in eternity as the only begotten Son of the Father. Both are equally God, and both are one. Jesus Christ though, to make the necessary atonement for sin, had to become fully man for a time, in order that He might live vicariously a righteous life, in order that we might also live a righteous life.
When born, Jesus Christ was born of a betrothed virgin. He was not born of a man and woman, but of the Spirit and a woman:
"After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins. - Matthew 1:18-21
The man is the parent through which sin comes, because the man stands as the being first created by God (think back to the Garden of Eden), and as the one commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Note that Adam and Eve did not notice they were naked when Eve ate of the fruit, but when Adam ate of the fruit. This does not demean or lower the role of the woman, but merely differentiates between the proper roles of men and women in the world. Thus, since by Adam they fell, through the man comes sin: therefore, regarding the birth of men, men who are born of men are all sinners. Men born of the spirit and a woman, though, are not. This is because the woman, though she is descended from Adam, does not pass the "sin nature" to her descendants. But what she did pass down to Jesus was a physical body. This is why Christ had to be born of a virgin: so that he could live just as we live. But by virtue of His birth of the Spirit, He was not a sinner: and yet He was fully man.
Incredible.
Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 04-07-2011 9:43 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 04-07-2011 10:45 PM sac51495 has replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 23 of 56 (611426)
04-07-2011 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by hooah212002
04-07-2011 10:01 PM


Those who bear fruit
hooah,
Refer to my Message 21.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by hooah212002, posted 04-07-2011 10:01 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 56 (611427)
04-07-2011 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by sac51495
04-07-2011 10:35 PM


Re: Judging
The man is the parent through which sin comes, because the man stands as the being first created by God (think back to the Garden of Eden), and as the one commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Note that Adam and Eve did not notice they were naked when Eve ate of the fruit, but when Adam ate of the fruit. This does not demean or lower the role of the woman, but merely differentiates between the proper roles of men and women in the world. Thus, since by Adam they fell, through the man comes sin: therefore, regarding the birth of men, men who are born of men are all sinners. Men born of the spirit and a woman, though, are not. This is because the woman, though she is descended from Adam, does not pass the "sin nature" to her descendants. But what she did pass down to Jesus was a physical body. This is why Christ had to be born of a virgin: so that he could live just as we live. But by virtue of His birth of the Spirit, He was not a sinner: and yet He was fully man.
Any support whatsoever for such malarkey?

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 10:35 PM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 11:05 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 25 of 56 (611428)
04-07-2011 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by sac51495
04-07-2011 10:41 PM


Re: Those who bear fruit
Yea, I was going to. You go on about predestination and whatnot. Ok, so then why do so many of you fuckers shove your obscene religion down everyones throat? Why are there missionaries going around ruining lives? Oh, that's right, because each little sect of xtianity believes their own thing. None of you are right.
Forgive me if I hate religion and think it a vile disease.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 10:41 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 26 of 56 (611440)
04-07-2011 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
04-07-2011 9:00 PM


Jon writes:
then all christians are liars.
I wouldn't say 'all', but a great majority certainly are, and happily so, to boot.
i mean, according to his argument. under "standard christian doctrineTM" all have sinned, all fall short, and we can't possibly attain the same level of perfection as christ -- thus the need for christ. i don't particularly agree with this doctrine, but it's taught in quite a few churches. dare i say, all of them.
even still, if we limit ourselves to very literal "be christ-like" teachings, we find that we must give away all our worldly possessions, and wander the streets bringing the gospel to all we come across.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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sac51495
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 27 of 56 (611441)
04-07-2011 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
04-07-2011 10:45 PM


Re: Christ: the Seed of the Woman
Jon,
Any support whatsoever for such malarkey?
I clearly built my message on Genesis 2-3. In Genesis two, God creates - first - man:
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." - Genesis 2:7
Then he give the man one commandment:
"Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. - Genesis 2:15-17
Then he created woman:
"And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man." - Genesis 2:21-22
Next, Genesis 2 quite significantly notes:
"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." - Genesis 2:25
So then the serpent tempts Eve, and she gives in.
"So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate." - Genesis 3:6
Then, Adam eats of the fruit:
"She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked" - Genesis 3:6-7
At which point they see their nakedness. So the crucial sequence of events is that we do not see God directly command Eve not to eat. This is exemplified in that they did not perceive their nakedness until Adam had partaken: they did not fall into sin until Adam had disobeyed. This does not mean it was okay for Eve to eat, but it does mean that she was not the one directly accountable to God. With the disobedience of Adam sin came into the world, not the disobedience of Eve. This is an idea supported by other scriptures:
"But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." I Cor. 11:3
Therefore, with the disobedience of man, sin came into the world: thus it is by the man that the curse of sin is conveyed to the children. Note what is said in the curse of Genesis 3:
"And I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." - Genesis 3:15
All biblical scholars and theologians cite this as an obvious prophecy of Jesus Christ, that is, the reference to the seed of the woman. What is significant here is that it refers to Christ as the seed of the woman, not of the man.
I already cited the verses in Matthew which state that Christ was born of a virgin and the Spirit.
Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 56 (611443)
04-07-2011 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by sac51495
04-07-2011 11:05 PM


Re: Christ: the Seed of the Woman
sac51495 writes:
So the crucial sequence of events is that we do not see God directly command Eve not to eat.
doesn't matter, as eve evidently knew.
quote:
And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'
-- Genesis 3:2,3
in fact, she quotes this nearly verbatim.
Therefore, with the disobedience of man, sin came into the world: thus it is by the man that the curse of sin is conveyed to the children. Note what is said in the curse of Genesis 3:
now, i can't speak for the greek, but frequently in the hebrew, adam or "man" is used to refer to both the male and female. for instance, see genesis 1:27, where god creates adam "male and female", and genesis 5:1,2, which says basically the same thing.
"And I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." - Genesis 3:15
All biblical scholars and theologians cite this as an obvious prophecy of Jesus Christ, that is, the reference to the seed of the woman. What is significant here is that it refers to Christ as the seed of the woman, not of the man.
no, most christians you talk to on the internet see this as prophecy. ask any jewish person, and they'll tell you it's not even vaguely messianic at all, nevermind being about jesus. it's an etiological tale -- and the snake is, at the end of it, your garden variety reptile. he slithers on the ground, licks the dirt, and women aren't too fond of him.
he says "her seed" because he's talking to eve -- this is the punishment of women for her sin. men have their own punishment.
I already cited the verses in Matthew which state that Christ was born of a virgin and the Spirit.
not to derail this thread, but you might be surprised that the hebrew verse matthew cites says nothing of the sort. in fact, even in most translations, when you read it in context, it can't possibly be about christ, because it was fulfilled roughly 600 years before he was born. the prophecy in isaiah 7 was given to king ahaz, and regards the defeat of the israel and aram, who were invading judah at the time, by assyria (who would soon destroy israel, and be on judah's doorstep).

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 11:05 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 29 of 56 (611447)
04-08-2011 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by sac51495
04-07-2011 10:22 PM


Re: Who gets the Kingdom?
As Jesus says, "you will know them by their fruit", the fruit being sanctification.
Actually, that was not what Jesus was talking about, at least not directly. He was talking about false prophets:
quote:
Matthew 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes
of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can]
a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn
down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The Matthew 7:20 Test cuts both ways. One day I had lunch with a friend from church, Gary. He told me how for many years he used to be a fundamentalist Christian. He found that he had to turn a blind eye to the every-day facts-of-life that directly contradicted his religious beliefs. Every day he had to engage in ever-increasing levels of self-delusion until it just became too much for him. So one day he finally decided to perform the Matthew 7:20 test on Christianity. OK, some things were good, but a lot more things were bad. Of course, Jesus didn't leave any wiggle-room, now did he? Just one evil fruit is enough to condemn Christianity as a false theology ... and he found many more than just one. So now Gary is, as he expressed it, "an atheist and thorough humanist", which he finds so much more spiritually fulfilling than when he was a Christian.
A possibly interesting side-discussion which could be carried on to your own recent thread, The False Dichotomy of Natural and Spiritual, concerning both whether an atheist and "thorough humanist" could be spiritually fulfilled, and whether "spiritual" need necessarily be considered something supernatural.
Similarly, one of the problems I have with certain Christian theologies (ie, all the fundamentalist, evangelical, and conservative denominations that I know of) is their zealous embracing of "creation science", which is a carefully (well, kind of carefully) constructed deception and the thoroughly unethical and dishonest conduct of so many creationists that I have observed and encountered for the past three decades. They are the fruits of their tree and, since they are evil, that means that their tree is also evil and must be hewn down and cast into the fire. Jesus' words, not mine, if one is to believe the Bible, which I assume that you do. Remember, no wiggle-room.
So many different theologies. So many different ideas of who is saved and who isn't. I read a piece of religious fiction (a sci-fi/speculative-fiction novel on religious themes, Only Begotten Daughter) which advanced an interesting idea on the subject. When Satan brings Jessica to Hell, She discovers that everybody is there, except for four people in all of history (including her own father -- She was, after all, born through an act of Immaculate Conception). Jesus was not among them, having gone to Hell to minister to the people there. He was horrified when he learned of the religions that had been based on him.
But the interesting idea put forward was that if any religion were to teach that someone was to go to Hell because he was of a particular group/religion, then he went there. And when you take all religions' teachings into account, it's found that everybody is damned to Hell. So, as the French say, Soit! ("So be it!"; for non-francophones, it sounds like "swat!" ... just so you can say it if you'd like).
So then, which theology are we to believe? Of course, each person would believe that his own theology is the only true one. And indeed, for most of my aware life, I have repeatedly heard the same argument: "All these different religions, but only one is true." Like the theist as compared to the atheist, wherein the theist disbelieves in only one fewer god than does the atheist, this view is not necessarily accurate. All theologies, after all, are human inventions, the Word of Man. Feable, fallible attempts by fallible humans to divine the Divine ... or at least to attempt to determine the truth about the supernatural, something about which we humans cannot observe or directly learn anything (objections thereto should be directed to my own thread, So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? (SUM. MESSAGES ONLY), which asks directly how we are supposed to practice the scientific method with supernaturalistic hypotheses, a question that in 225 messages (several of them being me bumping the thread for an answer) had never produced an answer.
My own answer to which theology is the One True Theology is that none of them are. All theologies, by their very nature, get something wrong and so cannot be the One True Theology which, like the Good Tree of the Matthew 7:20 Test, must be absolutely (not in the sense of fundamentalist practice, but rather actually absolutely) and totally True. Yet at the same time that all theologies are false, they are also all true (with the possible exception of a rare few), because they at least get something right. Even the fundamentalist theologies, difficult to believe though that may be. That is, insofar as they honestly try to ask the right questions -- in my own church and Gary's current one, a catch-phrase is "To Question is the Answer."
Each theology, each group, claims to know or to be able to determine who will be saved and who will not. Except for those groups for whom that is not a question (eg, Universalists). Torturing isolated Bible phrases will not yield the answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 10:22 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 30 of 56 (611452)
04-08-2011 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by sac51495
04-07-2011 11:05 PM


Re: Christ: the Seed of the Woman
All biblical scholars and theologians cite this as an obvious prophecy of Jesus Christ ...
Really? I'll add that to my list of funny things that religious people do, because it is not obviously anything of the sort. What it obviously means is that people will step on snakes and snakes will bite people. Do you suppose anyone in the years B.C. ever read that and said to themselves: "Ah, I see. This means that one day God will send his only begotten son to die for the sins of the world"?
Really, if that's your idea of an obvious prophecy one has to wonder what sort of thing you would think was obscure and recondite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by sac51495, posted 04-07-2011 11:05 PM sac51495 has not replied

  
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