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Author Topic:   Why only one Designer
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 3 of 377 (612084)
04-13-2011 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
04-12-2011 5:24 PM


So why do you assume that only one designer designed a universe as complex as ours your own logic points to there being tones of designers some designers designed stars, some rocks, some planets, some plants, some bacteria, some animals .......

Because creationism and ID are (very) thinly veiled attempts to get Genesis into science classes, and there's only one designer in Genesis.

Don't bother trying to point out flaws, non sequitors or fallacies in their reasoning. They don't reason. They obfuscate and lie. In fact, pointing out arcane errors in their arguments only makes matters worse. To anyone who can't follow an argument (most of their target audience), that only makes it all seem more complicated, and more reasonable to just say, "let both sides be heard." When that happens, they win.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by frako, posted 04-12-2011 5:24 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by frako, posted 04-13-2011 3:46 AM subbie has seen this message
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subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 79 of 377 (612323)
04-14-2011 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Straggler
04-14-2011 7:11 PM


Re: Parsimony
I think you took a couple of shortcuts in your statement that open it to pot shots. The more parsimonious of two explanations of equal explanatory power is generally preferred.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Straggler, posted 04-14-2011 7:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 04-14-2011 7:17 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 82 of 377 (612326)
04-14-2011 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Straggler
04-14-2011 7:17 PM


Re: Parsimony
The fewer assumptions that a hypothesis relies on, the less likely it will be that one of the assumptions will turn out to be unsupportable.

Edited by subbie, : Tyop


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 04-14-2011 7:17 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Straggler, posted 04-14-2011 7:36 PM subbie has seen this message

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 92 of 377 (612341)
04-14-2011 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Straggler
04-14-2011 7:52 PM


Re: Parsimony
On the pure designer front everything you say here is true. But on the first cause creator front (which is surely what the underlying issue is here) parsimony would stipulate no designer at all, followed by a single designer, followed by two designers and so on and so forth.

This ignores the question of how many assumptions are needed for the very existence of the "first cause" creator. In our experience on earth (which I must admit is limited), we generally see "higher" or more "advanced" forms of life seeking community. Certainly intelligence requires a long history of previously existing life forms.

Does it require more assumptions to support a single intelligence sufficient to create our universe than it does to support a community of intelligences? That answer is far from clear.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Straggler, posted 04-14-2011 7:52 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Straggler, posted 04-14-2011 8:15 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 95 of 377 (612345)
04-14-2011 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Straggler
04-14-2011 8:15 PM


Re: Parsimony
Yes, of course.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Straggler, posted 04-14-2011 8:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Straggler, posted 04-14-2011 8:22 PM subbie has seen this message

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 151 of 377 (612751)
04-18-2011 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by SavageD
04-18-2011 12:52 PM


Re: common design
since we know such objects are near impossible to come about through chance. for example, a watch

Of course, one significant difference between a watch and a DNA molecule is that a watch is composed of smaller parts that do not come together by themselves naturally whereas the smaller parts of a DNA molecule do combine together naturally by themselves.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by SavageD, posted 04-18-2011 12:52 PM SavageD has taken no action

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 187 of 377 (612939)
04-20-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by SavageD
04-20-2011 11:57 AM


If one was to argue that the materials always existed, one could also argue that a god always existed / they both had no first cause.

Quite true. Now, here's the $64 dollar question: What's the difference between religion and science?

Answer: Religion takes the unanswered question and uses it as evidence of a god. Science takes the unanswered question and looks for the answer. We don't know what, if anything, preceded the Big Bang. Science doesn't assume there must have been something before that. Science doesn't assume there couldn't have been anything before that. Science doesn't assume anything, and the only conclusion science comes to from the lack of knowledge is that it's something that needs to be investigated.

It's possible there was something before the Big Bang. One idea is called the Big Bounce. As I understand it, the evidence doesn't tend to support that idea, but it's not completely ruled out, either. But the lack of a definite answer certainly doesn't make god more or less likely either way.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by SavageD, posted 04-20-2011 11:57 AM SavageD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by SavageD, posted 04-20-2011 12:23 PM subbie has replied
 Message 190 by kbertsche, posted 04-20-2011 12:34 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 191 of 377 (612953)
04-20-2011 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by SavageD
04-20-2011 12:23 PM


I simply believe that life is here as a result of a designer(s).

And I have no problem with that, as long as you understand that there is zero evidence and logical reason for the belief.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by SavageD, posted 04-20-2011 12:23 PM SavageD has taken no action

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 192 of 377 (612954)
04-20-2011 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by kbertsche
04-20-2011 12:34 PM


You will probably find some ID proponents who use such arguments, but the main ID proponents (e.g. Dembski) try to argue for positive evidence of design rather than arguing for negative evidence (lack of scientific explanations).

The key word there, of course, being try. You could also mention that they fail miserably.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by kbertsche, posted 04-20-2011 12:34 PM kbertsche has seen this message

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 205 of 377 (612976)
04-20-2011 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by SavageD
04-20-2011 5:03 PM


"The Theory of Evolution does not say that any species came about through chance"....Nor does it attempt to describe how the mechanism used to create these new species arose (e.g dna utilization).

It simply states that these mechanisms are there, so things evolve, or things evolve because these mechanisms are there.

To be more precise: Things evolve because of natural selection, natural selection is there so things evolve...Everything else in the theory is due to chance. This is a tautology

The ToE is, quite simply, based upon the following observed facts:

1. Organisms compete for limited resources.

2. Organisms that are better equipped to compete in a given environment will tend to leave more of their progeny in the next generation than those that are less well equipped.

3. There will be genetic variation from generation to generation.

4. Some organisms in the next generation will be better equipped to compete for limited resources than others.

Repeat steps 2 through 4.

No tautologies, just a series of facts that have been observed countless times, giving rise to a theory.

Any questions?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by SavageD, posted 04-20-2011 5:03 PM SavageD has taken no action

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 213 of 377 (612985)
04-20-2011 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by SavageD
04-20-2011 7:24 PM


The evolution theory never attempts to describe how the mechanisms for natural selection arose, it simply ignores this factor. From this perspective natural selection is simply a product created by chance....and happens by chance.

Are you completely ignoring my Message 205, or are you wanting until you can think if some way to misconstrue my explanation before you respond to it?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by SavageD, posted 04-20-2011 7:24 PM SavageD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by SavageD, posted 04-20-2011 8:15 PM subbie has seen this message

  
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