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Author Topic:   Osama Bin Laden Gets What He Gives
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 30 of 98 (614219)
05-02-2011 8:06 PM


Though I am not an Obamite I think President Obama said it very succinctly and appropiately ‘And tonight, let us think back to the sense of unity that prevailed on 9/11. I know that it has, at times, frayed. Yet today’s achievement is a testament to the greatness of our country and the determination of the American people.’
Why can we not congragulate the men and women in our government and the military on a job well for taking out the most notorious mastermind of terrorism in todays modern world, and leave it at that.
Stop using this victory for your own political tirades.
This should be a time of unity for America, not divisiveness. Let's not bring politics and political rhetoric into this great day of justice and freedom. Remember this is a victory not just for America but for literally millions around the world living in fear and tyranny.
Winston Churchill writes:
Civilization will not last, freedom will not survive, peace will not be kept, unless a very large majority of mankind unite together to defend them and show themselves possessed of a constabulary power before which barbaric and atavistic forces will
Ronald Reagan writes:
We in America have learned bitter lessons from two world wars: It is better to be here [in Europe] ready to protect the peace, than to take blind shelter across the sea, rushing to respond only after freedom is lost. We've learned that isolationism never was and never will be an acceptable response to tyrannical governments with an expansionist intent.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Bailey, posted 05-02-2011 10:17 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 35 of 98 (614250)
05-03-2011 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Bailey
05-02-2011 10:17 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
How is OBL's murder a testament to the greatness of the USA? Or was that rhetorical?
So I take it you condone the terrorism that followed in OBL wake and were willing to live with and accept AQ terror-strewn activities at home and abroad. You do not think that taking out OBL was a good thing? Really?
Sorry not hip on Jack Bauer. Shows to me that you can't differentiate between fiction and reality.
Yes, for one day ..
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
us pretend all those wars aren't actually taking place, the PotUSA is not a politician, OBL & gang have no political affiliations and these events have no impact in modern political affairs.
When did I ever say that this event would have no impact on modern political affairs? It certainly does. My plea is that is should not. This should be a time of unity not devicive poltical bantering. Of course people on both sides will use this as a political tool for their own manipulation. However, hopefully other will take the road less traveled.
It seems these subjects can oft be very emotionally charged for many people and with our natural tendency as humans to let our emotions run wild at times and all, there's a sense some emotions are better suited for uniting, while others may serve better for dividing.
This event goes beyond mere emotions. We did what we had to do to prevent further evil from continuing, bottom line. Were emotions involved sure. However, I can assure you that the military or any other services related career does not run on pure emotion day in and day out. It runs on a sense of duty and commitment for doing what is right. Do some people betray this commitment, of course, However that does not negate the vast majority who want to serve and help their fellow man.
Honestly, who feels a heightened sense of freedom?
I think freedom and security to practice that freedom go hand in hand. Is not one less mass-murdering terrorist a good thing?
Please DA, don't pay any mind to the sarcasm as it's only meant in jest. I think we may agree that hopefully as many as can may release the bitterness and hatred that they've stocked in this man's image, and in doing so, heal.
Bitterness and hatred which are well founded. I hate to say it, but maybe one day you will understand if you ever fall victim to it. It is easy to make little quips from the comfort of your own home without experiencing it yourself.
Perhaps the irony of our posts often speak largely for themselves ..
And what irony is that praytell?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Bailey, posted 05-02-2011 10:17 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Bailey, posted 05-03-2011 8:15 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 05-03-2011 11:08 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 38 of 98 (614375)
05-03-2011 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Bailey
05-03-2011 8:15 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
Please, rather then put words in my mouth, just answer the question or take a pass.
By standing up to terrorism instead of cowtowing as some countries do to the demands of mass-murdering maniacs.
Sorry not hip on Jack Bauer. Shows to me that you can't differentiate between fiction and reality.
Show me there's a concise difference in the realm of propaganda and politics.
What is your point. I think we all agree that politics and propoganda are prevalent in all forums including this one. My point is what the heck does Jack Bauer have to do with taking out Bin Laden?
I don't eat elephants ..
However, I'm not convinced ignoring political realities helps digest them. No sooner would it have fallen the Berlin Wall or will it add your blue and white accents to Tiananmen Square.
What political reality do you think I am ignoring? What does this have to do with the Berlin Wall or Tiananmen Square. If you bring these other events you need to make the connections.
And I'm disagreeing w/ you. In an optimal setting, events of this nature should be able to be critiqued and discussed openly without fear of being accused of passive terrorism when disagreements arise, as you've done.
Ok, critique away. I am a big boy. Just be able to back up your assertions.
Playing the cheerleader is cute, but it does little else than entertain.
And being the token spoiler with little to back up your claims does nothing.
It's fueled w/ emotion DA and I hope you're not ignorant enough to overlook such dynamics.
I walked down the pier today and boarded my ship. Guess what, not much has changed in my daily military duties accept an increase in military security. No one was high fiving each other or yelling about getting Bin Laden. It was, in a way not much different than any other day in the Navy. In fact, very few people talked about the event. It was all very somber and nonchalant.
You want to know why? Because this event was just one event in a long chain of events taken to neutralize the potency of worldwide terrorism. However, it is not the end of this chain. We in the military KNOW this is not the end of terrorism and tyranny. We KNOW the price of freedom and at what cost it comes. We KNOW what we have to continue to do irregardless of whether the public takes notice or not.
In bunkers and rooms around the world, military personnel worldwide sat with silent resolve as they watched what unfolded on Sunday KNOWING that taking out Bin Laden was not the end. In fact they knew that this could potentially increase threats against our military forces.
So we finally nipped it in the bud huh - I mean, all that evil for all them millenia, & all we had to do was shoot an arab. As if murder could ever prevent evil ... honestly DA
Bin Laden was as much an enemy of Muslims as he was of us. In fact, I would claim he was more an enemy of the Muslims, betraying their very trust.
Really, you can sit there in the comfort of your house as you make these baseless remarks caring less the blood spilt to protect your freedoms.
You know nothing about me. So don't sit there and stereotype me. I work with many Arabs and Muslims in the military. I have friends of all colors, creeds and ethnicities. I have been deployed four times to the middle east. I would venture that I know more of these people than you ever will.
You be the judge, yet - now that the boogey man's dead, who feels a heightened sense of freedom ?
I would say there are many Muslims who do at the least.
Perhaps, and well funded, so you go ahead and nurture your bitterness and hatred then.
Nevertheless, with the effective removal of OBL as a conscious threat, it's my hope and prayer that others can finally heal.
I am not bitter. Just sad that we could not have prevented the senseless murder of literally tens of thousands and more due to the actions of this one man.
The notion that you said "Let's not bring politics and political rhetoric into this great day .." and "Stop using this victory for your own political tirades .." and then nonchalantly ended your post with a couple tirades from politicians.
I am sad that you really do not understand the destructiveness this one man caused in the world. You really have no clue why people are happy to see this man gone. It is akin to you criticizing family members of vicitims of a mass murder for being relieved and at peace at seeing the murder executed. I really don't understand your contempt for those who are happy one less murderous bastard is taken out.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Bailey, posted 05-03-2011 8:15 AM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Bailey, posted 05-04-2011 3:34 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 40 of 98 (614406)
05-04-2011 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Bailey
05-04-2011 3:34 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
The USA is not the only nation to do this.
Did I ever say that the US was the only country to fight terrorism??However, the USA military and CIA worked nearly unilaterraly in this one event (taking down Bin Laden in a surgical strike) so they can take the credit for this. Not to say that other countries like GB have not done there part on other terrorist fronts i.e. the fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan.
So why is this not a testament to the greatness of anyone who is unafraid of terrorists?
Who is saying it isnt?? Who is the one putting words in my mouth?
You make it sound like shooting a dirty arab who's hiding in a broom closet is paramount to the moon landing.
Um ok. Are you saying taking down the most notorious terrorist on Earth who masterminded the plot to kill thousands of Americans as well as tens of thousands of Muslims is not a significant achievement?
Special forces perform surgical operations on a routine basis.
Not of #1 on the World's most wanted terrorists list.
Me writes:
What political reality do you think I am ignoring?
[/qs]
Bailey writes:
When did I say you were?
[/qs]
Here:
Bailey writes:
However, I'm not convinced ignoring political realities helps digest them.
Know you can't even remember what you yourself wrote. I feel like I am arguing with a child.
I'm suggesting your desire to silence dissenting opinions is a form of curable ignorance.
When did I try to silence your dissenting opinion? Who is being ignorant here.
Not discussing the issues in E/W Germany only kept the wall up.
What does Bin Laden have to do with the Berlin Wall? Really?!? Please you have still not made a connection. I wouldn't be 'discussing' on this board if I didn't care to 'discuss the issues'. Your logic baffles me.
Fighting fire with fire works at times, and other times it only succeeds in making a larger fire
So you think we should have just stayed at home and done nothing after Al Queda terrorists made numerous attacks not just on our soil but our embassies around the world. Isolationism did not work in WWII and would have been disasterous if we did not do something after 9-11.
Stroking your national ego does little besides fan the flames.
Easy to say as you complicitly accept the protection of your freedoms from those who put their lives on the line.
Most others did not percieve OBL as any more of a threat than the next terrorist in line.
And since the line is long, why should my family feel safer minus one mouthpiece?
It is no use arguing sense with you. If you feel that nothing was accomplished nothing I say will convince you. Have a nice life.
Save your breath (or finger tips) and btw, nice diversion here I guess I'm still convinced that we can't diminish the value of one category of human life - yes, even that of a scumbag terrorist - without diminishing the value of all human life.
Really you think removing Bin Laden from the picture diminishes all of human life. You are really warped.
So please, forgive me for not celebrating a murder, but I don't do it when christians suggest to either.
So I guess if one of your family members or friends was murdered by this bastard you would have no compulsion or desire to want to take this guy out. You would care less if he got of scott free in a court of law and go out to continue his murderous rampage. Speaks alot about your sense of morality and your willingness to tacitally condone his actions by doing absolutely fucking nothing, essentially spitting in the face of the victims of 9-11 and those who put their lives on the line to protect your freedoms.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Bailey, posted 05-04-2011 3:34 AM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Bailey, posted 05-04-2011 7:53 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 45 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 10:17 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 47 of 98 (614441)
05-04-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
05-04-2011 10:17 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
What someone may want to do and what they actually do are not synonymous. Of course people would like to see a murderer punished and yes people might get upset if a court verdict does not go their way, but that is also totally irrelevant to the issue of the crowds of US citizens dancing and chanting in the streets or the utterly silly stadium chants of "USA, USA" when the first news broke.
I was not addressing the crowds of US citizens celebrating in the streets at the demise of Bin Laden. You missed my point entirely.
Truthfully I am not to hip street dancing and chanting to celebrate anyone's death. My impressions is that a lot of the people doing this are young immature adults with little life experience or just people caught up in the moment who do not see the hypocrisy of their actions when viewed by the Muslim world.
I apologize if I came off a little strong, it was only to hammer my point home not meant to personally attack anyone. However, there is nothing wrong being relieved and feeling a sense of justice at the demise of a mass murderer.
Nor has anyone suggested doing absolutely fucking nothing. Nor is it essentially spitting in the face of the victims of 9-11 and those who put their lives on the line to protect your freedoms; it is called respecting the rule of law; it is called being civilized.
Agreed. I am not arguing this. You guys act like it is a sin to be happy that this mass murderer is dead. You act like we should never had pursued this guy to justice and then act all distraught that we have the audacity to conduct a surgical strike to take out someone who killed over 3000 Americans and god knows how many other people around the world. God forbid we actually take action and kill a truly evil person who had no regard for life.
You are of course free to rant to your hearts content, but understand why others see it as just a rant.
What is the difference between my 'rant' and yours? Mere words to trying to make a point. I see no difference between the two.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 10:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 11:45 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 52 by Dr Jack, posted 05-04-2011 12:34 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 48 of 98 (614444)
05-04-2011 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by GDR
05-04-2011 10:40 AM


Re: Grrrr @ the polarising nature of this issue
Good post Rhavin. I agree whole-heartedly. I would suspect most of the people who were directly affected by 9-11, are not the ones partying in the streets. My suspicion is that most of the partyers are young people with little life experience who are caught up in their emotions.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 05-04-2011 10:40 AM GDR has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 50 of 98 (614450)
05-04-2011 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
05-04-2011 11:45 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
I for one think we were really really stupid to militarily invade Afghanistan and likely criminal in invading Iraq, but that is a far cry from saying we should do nothing.
I was not a big supporter of the Iraqi war either and believed we should have pursued Al Queda in Afghanistan before trying to tangle with Huessein in Iraq.
However, how praytell could we neutralize Al Queda and Bin Laden without going to the source of his operation in Afghanistan? You really think Bin Laden would have just stopped at 9-11 and not continued his attacks if we had not gone into Afghanistan immediately following 9-11?
What actions do you think we should have done since you are evidently smarter than all the US military leaders combined in the last decade.
Did we make misakes. Of course. Did we sometimes cause flashback on our own presence in the Middle East. Of course. However, what is the alternative? Sometimes we have had to pick the less of two evils. However, I do not regret our pursuit and removal of Bin Laden from the picture. This I believe was a victory not a mistake.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 11:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 12:08 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 66 by dronestar, posted 05-05-2011 1:13 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 53 of 98 (614462)
05-04-2011 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
05-04-2011 12:08 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
I did not say that we should not have gone after Bin Laden or Al Queda either. I said that a military invasion of Afghanistan was stupid.
We could have gone after the key people in Al Queda the very same way we got Bin Laden, through intelligence and a strategic strike.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I for one think we were really really stupid to militarily invade Afghanistan and likely criminal in invading Iraq, but that is a far cry from saying we should do nothing.
I was not a big supporter of the Iraqi war either and believed we should have pursued Al Queda in Afghanistan before trying to tangle with Huessein in Iraq.
However, how praytell could we neutralize Al Queda and Bin Laden without going to the source of his operation in Afghanistan? You really think Bin Laden would have just stopped at 9-11 and not continued his attacks if we had not gone into Afghanistan immediately following 9-11?
What actions do you think we should have done since you are evidently smarter than all the US military leaders combined in the last decade.
Did we make misakes. Of course. Did we sometimes cause flashback on our own presence in the Middle East. Of course. However, what is the alternative? Sometimes we have had to pick the less of two evils. However, I do not regret our pursuit and removal of Bin Laden from the picture. This I believe was a victory not a mistake.
I did not say that we should not have gone after Bin Laden or Al Queda either. I said that a military invasion of Afghanistan was stupid.
We could have gone after the key people in Al Queda the very same way we got Bin Laden, through intelligence and a strategic strike.
How do you think we attained the intelligence to capture Bin Laden? Al Queda was much larger before we went into Afghanistan. Afghanistan for all intensive purposes was run by the Taliban and Al Queda in the 90's. Al Queda was severelly crippled only after a concerted attack by NATO forces in the region. Stategic strikes can only work if we have the intelligence to act on them. Once the 9-11 attack occured, Bin Laden went underground and became very elusive. It was only after whittling down Al Queda and capturing some of their key members were we able to get this intelligence.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 12:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 2:49 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 56 of 98 (614486)
05-04-2011 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dr Jack
05-04-2011 12:34 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
We did not pursue him to justice; instead we assassinated an enemy leader.
You and I do not have the details on this operation to make an intelligent critique on how it should have been conducted.
Have you ever been in a surgical fire-fight on foreign soil taking down the most infamous terrorist on the planet? No, than I don't think either of us have room to criticize how this went down. It could have gone very, very badly, i.e. the Seal Team captured and tortured or killed while conducting the raid.
Personally, I'm happy he's dead. The world is a better place for that. But I'm profoundly bothered that the US chose to kill him rather than bring him to justice.
You and I do not know if there was a choice in killing him or not. Again we do not have all the details.
And I'm bothered that the US chose to carry out a special forces mission in the sovereign territory of an ally to do so.
Believe me I think Pakistan can be a good ally for us, but it is evident that this is a country divided in its commitments considering that Bin Laden was located right under the noses of Pakistan military (adjacent to many homes of ISI and active duty/retired Pakistan army officers and only 500 or 600 yards from a Pakastanian military academy). Pakistan only recently decided to start 'cooperating' in the war against terrorism and only because we provided monetary aid to the country. In the 90's and earlier this decade Pakistan harbored and provided aid to the Taliban and Al Queda in their fight against the democratic United National Front movement of Afghanistan.
If we attempted to get permission from Pakistan before the attack, it is very plausible that someone in the Pakistan government would have tipped of Bin Laden with possibly disasterous results.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Dr Jack, posted 05-04-2011 12:34 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 58 of 98 (614494)
05-04-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
05-04-2011 2:49 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
jar writes:
DevilsAdvocate writes:
How do you think we attained the intelligence to capture Bin Laden? Al Queda was much larger before we went into Afghanistan. Afghanistan for all intensive purposes was run by the Taliban and Al Queda in the 90's. Al Queda was severelly crippled only after a concerted attack by NATO forces in the region. Stategic strikes can only work if we have the intelligence to act on them. Once the 9-11 attack occured, Bin Laden went underground and became very elusive. It was only after whittling down Al Queda and capturing some of their key members were we able to get this intelligence.
We gained intelligence the same way intelligence has always been garnered, slowly, piece by piece using technology, money, threat, force, coercion and most of all, through people on the ground that are accepted into a culture.
The issue is whether a full scale military invasion of Afghanistan helped or hindered gathering that information.
The problem is, we did not have time to wait to let Al Queda strike again. Al Queda forced our hand by striking on home soil in the same way Japan forced our hand at Pearl Harbor in 1941.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 2:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 4:41 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 65 of 98 (614567)
05-04-2011 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Hyroglyphx
05-04-2011 5:20 PM


Re: Armed men shoot unarmed man in front of wife and children
The White House released a statement of clarification, stating that bin Laden did not use his wife as a human shield, and that by the time the SEAL's engaged him, he was unarmed. They shot him in the head anyways.
Easy to say this in the comfort of your home.
Sorry I really don't have any sympathy for this guy. You can't blame them for taking him out especially after the adrenaline fueled fire fight with the body guards and his wife rushing at them. Even highly trained professionals like the Navy Seals are not going to put there lives on the line in hopes that Bin Laden was not armed.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-04-2011 5:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2011 10:25 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 71 of 98 (614658)
05-05-2011 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by dronestar
05-05-2011 1:13 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
The mujahideen were significantly financed, armed and trained by the United States which spawned Bin Laden, whom caused 9/11. Look up "blowback" sometime.
It is easy to be criticle of our decisions when looking through the rear view window. In the 1980's the Soviet Union was still a viable threat. That is why we covertly supported the Mujahideen's battle against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. This was a very hush, hush support in which few in the government were aware of, much less the general public.
And yes I know what blowback is.
I'm no rocket scientist, but I think it would have been smart NOT to support a fanatical and violent group of people to begin
Again easy to say when looking back in history.
Kinda makes "military intelligence" an oxymoron, yes?
Ha ha, never heard this one before. Taking cheap potshots does nothing to help your argument. You don't have a leg to stand on if you have no experience in this area.
For Americans to cheer the death of someone that America enthusiastically helped to create is pretty ignorant.
We did not create Bin Laden anymore than we created Saddam Husein (who we also supported in Iraq's war against Iran). These people are adult human beings who made decisions to turn their anger and wrath against America even before we went into Iraq and Afghanistan. Our physical presence in the Middle East was minimal in the 1970s and 1980s. It wasn't until the terrorists started bringing the war onto home soil that we started hitting back.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by dronestar, posted 05-05-2011 1:13 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 05-05-2011 5:32 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 79 by dronestar, posted 05-06-2011 9:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 74 of 98 (614672)
05-05-2011 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
05-05-2011 5:32 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
Granted much (including the actual purposes and tasks of the PGC) were at least tacitly covert but hardly secret. In particular the Naval presence in the Persian Gulf since 1949 was pretty obvious. Throw in a few regime changes in countries like Egypt and Iran as well as fluctuating support for nations like Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon and I would hardly say the US presence in the Middle East was minimal in the70s and 80s.
Granted. I meant minimal in relation to our involvement now. Minimal was probably the wrong word to use.
The problem is that so much of that history is NOT taught to the generations of Americans and so they are unaware of just how much meddling we really did in the area.
You are not stating the other side of the story. That we were attempting to counterbalance the soviet influence in the middle east. Our involvement in the ME has waxed and waned all the way back to WWII.
As far as our Naval presence in the ME, this was to provide stability to the region after the first Gulf War and to counteract Iran's attempt to mine the Straights of Hormuz to monopolize the oil exports out of Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq and other Persian Gulf states.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 05-05-2011 5:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 05-05-2011 7:25 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 85 of 98 (614817)
05-07-2011 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by dronestar
05-06-2011 9:18 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
And it is also very easy to be critical when the decisions are incredibly dumb, immoral, and criminal.
So says you. I am sure in retrospect some decisions were shown to make matters worse not better however to label them all as criminal and immoral is painting with a broad brush of ignorance of why these decisions were made. Each should be analyzed for historical context of why they were made and what were the resulting consequences of these decesions.
Well, that's lovely. Apparently it's ok to you that america only SUPPORT the terrorist's atrocities as long as we don't CREATE them.
No one supported these attrocities when they occured. If we had known these very same people would turn on us we would have never supported them in the first place. Again, easy words to say in retrospect.
However, you might want to look deeper into history. The CIA assisted. The CIA funded the Ba'ath Party - of which Saddam Hussein was a member.
I am not familiar with this. If you can provide evidence I will investigate further.
Of course there are actions and decisions that our government later regrets having made (i.e. Bay of Pigs invasion, etc). However, again we can not predict the future (sometimes disastrous). Again we have to see what the context of these decisions and why we made them at the time. I would say though that we have for the most part as a country made good decisions over bad ones through history in our effort to promote democracy around the world.
Of course mistakes (again sometimes disastrous) have been and will continue to be made. However, for the most part we are a promoter of good will around the world and I will never be ashamed to be called an American or to have served in the US military.
Umm, I guess I already forgot,... when exactly did Iraqis turn their anger against the USA? Was it during the 1990s when the USA led crippling sanctions against the Iraqis that murdered half a million of their children?
Again you are distorting the facts. All of the figures shown above were provided solely by Saddam Hussein's government not by any outside entities.
Maybe the following will help shed light on the inaccurate claims in laying the blame on America when it really was the result of the Iraqi government itself (Saddam Hussein) who was guilty of deliberately mismanaging tens of billions of dollars in humanitarian aid as shown below:
Genocide scholar Milton Leitenberg writes:
raq reported its infant mortality for 1987 (children under one year of age dying) as 70 per 1000 and child mortality (children under 5 years of age) as 96 per 1000, both extremely high figures. Since then Iraqi authorities have claimed that the pre-1990 levels were only one-third that high. All alleged post-1990 figures on infant and child mortality in Iraq are supplied by the Iraqi government agencies. There is no mechanism by which the WHO, UNICEF, or any other international agency can gather such data. The numbers claimed by Iraq for child mortality since 1991 do not appear credible but are widely repeated in the press worldwide...
At the same time, Iraq has diverted attention from its violations by alleging a humanitarian crisis caused by the UNSC-mandated sanctions. The crux of this issue is that the deterioration of the nutritional status of children has been the result of policy choices made by the Iraqi government in the intervening years, rather than by the sanctions directly. Precisely because of exceptions included in the original UN Security Council sanctions resolutions, Iraq always had the ability since 1991 to import food and medicines, and Iraq additionally had both the currency reserves and sufficient current earnings with which to do so. The Iraqi government simply chose to use its money and its earnings for other purposes. Therefore, if child mortality and malnutrition have been excessive since 1991, that is not due to the sanctions directly, but to the choices that the Iraqi government has made for ten years on how to use its available funds under constrained circumstances.
economist Michael Spagat writes:
First, the Kurdish zone was free of Saddam’s control. In the South/centre, though, the reaction of Saddam Hussein’s regime to the sanctions must be part of a full explanation for child mortality patterns in this zone. ... A second potential explanation for the strange patterns displayed by the South/ Centre in the [data] is that they were not real but, rather, results of manipulations by the Iraqi government
Former President Bill Clinton writes:
Before the sanctions, the year before the Gulf War, and you said this ... how much money did Iraq earn from oil? Answer$16 billion. How much money did Iraq earn last year from oil? How much money did they get, cash on the barrel head, to Saddam Hussein? Answer$19 billion that he can use exclusively for food, for medicine, to develop his country. He’s got more money now, $3 billion a year more than he had nine years ago. If any child is without food or medicine or a roof over his or her head in Iraq, it’s because he is claiming the sanctions are doing it and sticking it to his own children.
When Madeline Albright said it was worth killing half a million children to bring about political change?
She made a statement she later regretted making. I agree though it was poorly worded and sounded inhumane in context to the question.
You might want to research the term "terrorists" some time and see if it applies to the US.
I disagree. Have we made mistakes as Americans. Of course. Do we have a policy of deliberately murdering innocent people and children. Of course not. We are not the evil people you make us out to be. You do not even acknowledge the billions of dollars in aid and military support we provide to people around the world on a daily basis (i.e. our military provided humanitarian aid to Japan and Haiti in the latest news).
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by dronestar, posted 05-06-2011 9:18 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by dronestar, posted 05-10-2011 12:55 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 86 of 98 (614819)
05-07-2011 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Hyroglyphx
05-06-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Armed men shoot unarmed man in front of wife and children
We just don't have the luxury of the same insight that they had as boots on the ground in the middle of a goddamn firefight. Still, I wonder why they didn't make more of an effort to take him alive. I would have thought that all this GTMO interrogations of low-level insurgents would pale in comparison to the big fish.
Even after a week after the raid on Bin Laden's compound we do not have the full, complete and accurate story on how the raid went down. However, as more information comes out it sounds like the Seals had to make split second decisions after a fire-fight with Bin Laden's courier and a couple of people that rushed them. An AK-47 was found within reach of Bin Laden when he was killed.
Latest account of events (from Reuters):
A SEAL squad moved in darkness on the guest house, one of two dwellings inside the walls of bin Laden's compound. They were met with hostile fire. As they moved in, they shot a man who was in the guest house.
He turned out to be Abu Ahmed Al-Kuwaiti, the al Qaeda courier whose activities the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies had been investigating for years and who they believed would lead them to bin Laden.
After shooting al-Kuwaiti, the two sources familiar with official accounts said, U.S. commandos moved onto the compound's three-story main residence.
As they entered the house, they saw a man with his hands behind his back. Fearing that the man might be holding a weapon behind him, the commandos shot him dead.
It turned out that the man, who was the brother of Abu Ahmed al Kuwaiti and another suspected al Qaeda courier, was not holding a weapon, according to the two sources familiar with official accounts.
However, the attackers did subsequently find weapons near the second man's body, the sources said.
After killing the second courier, commandos started climbing the stairs to the house's upper floors. As they climbed, a man charged down the stairs at them, and was shot dead. U.S. authorities now believe that he was Osama bin Laden's son.
As commandos proceeded up the stairs, the sources said, they saw a person they believed was bin Laden either poke his head out of a door or over a balcony. One of the sources said that the attackers took at least one shot at the person, who then retreated back inside the room he had come from.
The U.S. commandos proceeded to the top floor and into the room where the man had retreated. While entering the room, they were rushed by a woman. The woman, now believed to be one of bin Laden's wives, was shot in the leg.
After shooting her, the commandos pushed her to the side. Precisely what bin Laden then did, and what his reaction was when the commandos entered and shot his wife, is unclear.
But the people familiar with official accounts said the attackers did not wait for much of a reaction, and almost immediately shot the al Qaeda leader dead.
And from ABC:
The Americans were also fired on by a man who was one of bin Laden's trusted couriers, officials said. The courier was killed by return fire from the SEALs, and they did not encounter any additional gunfire.
That early gunfire indicated to the SEALs that they might expect further resistance. And they did find a small arsenal of weapons in the home.
"We recovered three AK-47s and two pistols from the compound. They weren't storming a PTA meeting. They were storming into Osama Bin Laden's fortress hideout," said the same U.S. official. At least one AK-47 was found in bin Laden's room.
Again, enough resistance existed to precipitate shoot to kill actions of the Seals. Just as in police raids unless hostages were thought to be involved, raids typically will have shoot to kill orders to protect those conducting the raid from being injured and killed themselves. The Seal team went into the compound not knowing the amount of armed resistance that they would face and so anticipated (correctly) the worst. No one can fault them for this.
More was gained from the material evidence in the compound than probably would be gleaned from keeping Bin Laden alive. Also, with Bin Laden alive and in US custody this could spark more violence than taking out the head of Al Queda.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2011 10:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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