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Author Topic:   Osama Bin Laden Gets What He Gives
GDR
Member
Posts: 6203
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 46 of 98 (614435)
05-04-2011 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Rahvin
05-02-2011 3:15 PM


Re: Grrrr @ the polarising nature of this issue
Rahvin writes:
The Western world regularly disapproves (to put it mildly) of the sort of partying in the streets that we see in the media from Muslim nations when disasters befall the West, particularly America, like on 9/11.
Our current behavior upon the death of Osama bin Laden is eerily similar, and should make people think about their own actions, the perceptions of others, and what protesting Muslims might be feeling when they burn former President Bush in effigy, or set fire to an American flag.
Osama needed killing. There was no way he was going to basically be Cobra Commander and not either get shot, blown up, or captured and executed. It's okay to be happy when a mass murderer finally gets some justice.
But partying in the streets? Why not fire an AK-47 into the air and scream "God is great?" Burn a Saudi flag? A Pakistani one? Oh, I know - let's burn some Korans and some flags bearing the Muslim crescent! I bet we could make a straw effigy pretty easily and set it on fire too...
This should be a solemn time of reflection, and gladness not that a man is dead, but that the families of that man's victims can now have at least some measure of closure and justice, and that the man won't kill anyone else ever again.
Amen. That is a great post. Death is not something to celebrate even if it is a necessary one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Rahvin, posted 05-02-2011 3:15 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 11:43 AM GDR has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 47 of 98 (614441)
05-04-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
05-04-2011 10:17 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
What someone may want to do and what they actually do are not synonymous. Of course people would like to see a murderer punished and yes people might get upset if a court verdict does not go their way, but that is also totally irrelevant to the issue of the crowds of US citizens dancing and chanting in the streets or the utterly silly stadium chants of "USA, USA" when the first news broke.
I was not addressing the crowds of US citizens celebrating in the streets at the demise of Bin Laden. You missed my point entirely.
Truthfully I am not to hip street dancing and chanting to celebrate anyone's death. My impressions is that a lot of the people doing this are young immature adults with little life experience or just people caught up in the moment who do not see the hypocrisy of their actions when viewed by the Muslim world.
I apologize if I came off a little strong, it was only to hammer my point home not meant to personally attack anyone. However, there is nothing wrong being relieved and feeling a sense of justice at the demise of a mass murderer.
Nor has anyone suggested doing absolutely fucking nothing. Nor is it essentially spitting in the face of the victims of 9-11 and those who put their lives on the line to protect your freedoms; it is called respecting the rule of law; it is called being civilized.
Agreed. I am not arguing this. You guys act like it is a sin to be happy that this mass murderer is dead. You act like we should never had pursued this guy to justice and then act all distraught that we have the audacity to conduct a surgical strike to take out someone who killed over 3000 Americans and god knows how many other people around the world. God forbid we actually take action and kill a truly evil person who had no regard for life.
You are of course free to rant to your hearts content, but understand why others see it as just a rant.
What is the difference between my 'rant' and yours? Mere words to trying to make a point. I see no difference between the two.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 10:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 11:45 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 52 by Dr Jack, posted 05-04-2011 12:34 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 48 of 98 (614444)
05-04-2011 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by GDR
05-04-2011 10:40 AM


Re: Grrrr @ the polarising nature of this issue
Good post Rhavin. I agree whole-heartedly. I would suspect most of the people who were directly affected by 9-11, are not the ones partying in the streets. My suspicion is that most of the partyers are young people with little life experience who are caught up in their emotions.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 05-04-2011 10:40 AM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 49 of 98 (614445)
05-04-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by DevilsAdvocate
05-04-2011 11:40 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
DevilsAdvocate writes:
You act like we should never had pursued this guy to justice and then act all distraught that we have the audacity to conduct a surgical strike to take out someone who killed over 3000 Americans and god knows how many other people around the world. God forbid we actually take action and kill a truly evil person who had no regard for life.
Again, that is simply not correct.
I for one think we were really really stupid to militarily invade Afghanistan and likely criminal in invading Iraq, but that is a far cry from saying we should do nothing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 11:40 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 11:53 AM jar has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 50 of 98 (614450)
05-04-2011 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
05-04-2011 11:45 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
I for one think we were really really stupid to militarily invade Afghanistan and likely criminal in invading Iraq, but that is a far cry from saying we should do nothing.
I was not a big supporter of the Iraqi war either and believed we should have pursued Al Queda in Afghanistan before trying to tangle with Huessein in Iraq.
However, how praytell could we neutralize Al Queda and Bin Laden without going to the source of his operation in Afghanistan? You really think Bin Laden would have just stopped at 9-11 and not continued his attacks if we had not gone into Afghanistan immediately following 9-11?
What actions do you think we should have done since you are evidently smarter than all the US military leaders combined in the last decade.
Did we make misakes. Of course. Did we sometimes cause flashback on our own presence in the Middle East. Of course. However, what is the alternative? Sometimes we have had to pick the less of two evils. However, I do not regret our pursuit and removal of Bin Laden from the picture. This I believe was a victory not a mistake.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 11:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 12:08 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 66 by dronestar, posted 05-05-2011 1:13 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 51 of 98 (614455)
05-04-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by DevilsAdvocate
05-04-2011 11:53 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I for one think we were really really stupid to militarily invade Afghanistan and likely criminal in invading Iraq, but that is a far cry from saying we should do nothing.
I was not a big supporter of the Iraqi war either and believed we should have pursued Al Queda in Afghanistan before trying to tangle with Huessein in Iraq.
However, how praytell could we neutralize Al Queda and Bin Laden without going to the source of his operation in Afghanistan? You really think Bin Laden would have just stopped at 9-11 and not continued his attacks if we had not gone into Afghanistan immediately following 9-11?
What actions do you think we should have done since you are evidently smarter than all the US military leaders combined in the last decade.
Did we make misakes. Of course. Did we sometimes cause flashback on our own presence in the Middle East. Of course. However, what is the alternative? Sometimes we have had to pick the less of two evils. However, I do not regret our pursuit and removal of Bin Laden from the picture. This I believe was a victory not a mistake.
I did not say that we should not have gone after Bin Laden or Al Queda either. I said that a military invasion of Afghanistan was stupid.
We could have gone after the key people in Al Queda the very same way we got Bin Laden, through intelligence and a strategic strike.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 11:53 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 12:43 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 52 of 98 (614459)
05-04-2011 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DevilsAdvocate
05-04-2011 11:40 AM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Agreed. I am not arguing this. You guys act like it is a sin to be happy that this mass murderer is dead. You act like we should never had pursued this guy to justice and then act all distraught that we have the audacity to conduct a surgical strike to take out someone who killed over 3000 Americans and god knows how many other people around the world. God forbid we actually take action and kill a truly evil person who had no regard for life.
We did not pursue him to justice; instead we assassinated an enemy leader.
Personally, I'm happy he's dead. The world is a better place for that. But I'm profoundly bothered that the US chose to kill him rather than bring him to justice.
And I'm bothered that the US chose to carry out a special forces mission in the sovereign territory of an ally to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 11:40 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by fearandloathing, posted 05-04-2011 1:07 PM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 56 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 3:02 PM Dr Jack has not replied
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-04-2011 5:32 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 53 of 98 (614462)
05-04-2011 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
05-04-2011 12:08 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
I did not say that we should not have gone after Bin Laden or Al Queda either. I said that a military invasion of Afghanistan was stupid.
We could have gone after the key people in Al Queda the very same way we got Bin Laden, through intelligence and a strategic strike.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I for one think we were really really stupid to militarily invade Afghanistan and likely criminal in invading Iraq, but that is a far cry from saying we should do nothing.
I was not a big supporter of the Iraqi war either and believed we should have pursued Al Queda in Afghanistan before trying to tangle with Huessein in Iraq.
However, how praytell could we neutralize Al Queda and Bin Laden without going to the source of his operation in Afghanistan? You really think Bin Laden would have just stopped at 9-11 and not continued his attacks if we had not gone into Afghanistan immediately following 9-11?
What actions do you think we should have done since you are evidently smarter than all the US military leaders combined in the last decade.
Did we make misakes. Of course. Did we sometimes cause flashback on our own presence in the Middle East. Of course. However, what is the alternative? Sometimes we have had to pick the less of two evils. However, I do not regret our pursuit and removal of Bin Laden from the picture. This I believe was a victory not a mistake.
I did not say that we should not have gone after Bin Laden or Al Queda either. I said that a military invasion of Afghanistan was stupid.
We could have gone after the key people in Al Queda the very same way we got Bin Laden, through intelligence and a strategic strike.
How do you think we attained the intelligence to capture Bin Laden? Al Queda was much larger before we went into Afghanistan. Afghanistan for all intensive purposes was run by the Taliban and Al Queda in the 90's. Al Queda was severelly crippled only after a concerted attack by NATO forces in the region. Stategic strikes can only work if we have the intelligence to act on them. Once the 9-11 attack occured, Bin Laden went underground and became very elusive. It was only after whittling down Al Queda and capturing some of their key members were we able to get this intelligence.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 12:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 2:49 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4231 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 54 of 98 (614464)
05-04-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dr Jack
05-04-2011 12:34 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
Mr Jack writes:
We did not pursue him to justice; instead we assassinated an enemy leader.
I would've rather seen him brought to justice. Letting him rot in some prison would've served us better, instead we made a martyr out of him.
Personally, I'm happy he's dead. The world is a better place for that. But I'm profoundly bothered that the US chose to kill him rather than bring him to justice.
I would love to see the tape of the live feed Oboma watched, it might answer a few questions, but that probably wont happen. It would be nice to see if he could've been taken alive, even then it is easy to critique a mission and find faults, being there would be the only way to put it in proper perspective.
He was probably shot in the face/head, I am sure that might have something to do with pictures not being shown yet.
And I'm bothered that the US chose to carry out a special forces mission in the sovereign territory of an ally to do so.
I think this speaks volumes on how little we trust Pakistan, of course I have always thought he had many sympathizers there. I guess we figured we smooth it out with them later.
In the end I don't think this will change too much, but I am glad we got him.
It will be interesting to hear all the conspiracy talk from the likes of Alex Jones...ect, I bet there is probably something on prison planet now. One gentleman I talk with on radio has already said he thinks we got him at Guantanamo alive. Should be very entertaining, I love a good nut-job conspiracy. Hell you never know, might even be some truth in some of them!!! LOL
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 55 of 98 (614485)
05-04-2011 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by DevilsAdvocate
05-04-2011 12:43 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
DevilsAdvocate writes:
How do you think we attained the intelligence to capture Bin Laden? Al Queda was much larger before we went into Afghanistan. Afghanistan for all intensive purposes was run by the Taliban and Al Queda in the 90's. Al Queda was severelly crippled only after a concerted attack by NATO forces in the region. Stategic strikes can only work if we have the intelligence to act on them. Once the 9-11 attack occured, Bin Laden went underground and became very elusive. It was only after whittling down Al Queda and capturing some of their key members were we able to get this intelligence.
We gained intelligence the same way intelligence has always been garnered, slowly, piece by piece using technology, money, threat, force, coercion and most of all, through people on the ground that are accepted into a culture.
The issue is whether a full scale military invasion of Afghanistan helped or hindered gathering that information.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 12:43 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 4:29 PM jar has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 56 of 98 (614486)
05-04-2011 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dr Jack
05-04-2011 12:34 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
We did not pursue him to justice; instead we assassinated an enemy leader.
You and I do not have the details on this operation to make an intelligent critique on how it should have been conducted.
Have you ever been in a surgical fire-fight on foreign soil taking down the most infamous terrorist on the planet? No, than I don't think either of us have room to criticize how this went down. It could have gone very, very badly, i.e. the Seal Team captured and tortured or killed while conducting the raid.
Personally, I'm happy he's dead. The world is a better place for that. But I'm profoundly bothered that the US chose to kill him rather than bring him to justice.
You and I do not know if there was a choice in killing him or not. Again we do not have all the details.
And I'm bothered that the US chose to carry out a special forces mission in the sovereign territory of an ally to do so.
Believe me I think Pakistan can be a good ally for us, but it is evident that this is a country divided in its commitments considering that Bin Laden was located right under the noses of Pakistan military (adjacent to many homes of ISI and active duty/retired Pakistan army officers and only 500 or 600 yards from a Pakastanian military academy). Pakistan only recently decided to start 'cooperating' in the war against terrorism and only because we provided monetary aid to the country. In the 90's and earlier this decade Pakistan harbored and provided aid to the Taliban and Al Queda in their fight against the democratic United National Front movement of Afghanistan.
If we attempted to get permission from Pakistan before the attack, it is very plausible that someone in the Pakistan government would have tipped of Bin Laden with possibly disasterous results.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Dr Jack, posted 05-04-2011 12:34 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4231 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 57 of 98 (614487)
05-04-2011 3:29 PM


Conspirices to follow
Alex Jones
also
That is what is on prison planet. I hate that some hard evidence wont be given, gives too much ammo for the nut-jobs to use. I guess Osama is hanging out with Elvis in some alternate reality. Yes yes, Osama might become the Muslim Elvis, in Iran one day and Sudan the next.
Either way POTUS handles it there will be people waiting to criticize him. I am not sure releasing a few pictures would do too much damage though? I am almost certain some will get out eventually. Better that they are officially released as to avoid the authenticity issue.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3187 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 58 of 98 (614494)
05-04-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
05-04-2011 2:49 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
jar writes:
DevilsAdvocate writes:
How do you think we attained the intelligence to capture Bin Laden? Al Queda was much larger before we went into Afghanistan. Afghanistan for all intensive purposes was run by the Taliban and Al Queda in the 90's. Al Queda was severelly crippled only after a concerted attack by NATO forces in the region. Stategic strikes can only work if we have the intelligence to act on them. Once the 9-11 attack occured, Bin Laden went underground and became very elusive. It was only after whittling down Al Queda and capturing some of their key members were we able to get this intelligence.
We gained intelligence the same way intelligence has always been garnered, slowly, piece by piece using technology, money, threat, force, coercion and most of all, through people on the ground that are accepted into a culture.
The issue is whether a full scale military invasion of Afghanistan helped or hindered gathering that information.
The problem is, we did not have time to wait to let Al Queda strike again. Al Queda forced our hand by striking on home soil in the same way Japan forced our hand at Pearl Harbor in 1941.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 2:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 05-04-2011 4:41 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 59 of 98 (614497)
05-04-2011 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by DevilsAdvocate
05-04-2011 4:29 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
I don't see that at all.
The issue with Al Queda and Afghanistan and 9-11 is not really cut and dry. Much of the planning for 9-11 as an example took place in the US, Canada, Spain, Indonesia, Philippines, and other areas far removed from Afghanistan.
Since you bring up WWII, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was about as poorly thought out as so many military actions. The Japanese went after the wrong targets there just as we did with the Afghanistan invasion. (love to discuss that one maybe in a different thread)
I am not saying that we should not have moved against Al Queda even in Afghanistan, and I fully support the initial limited introduction of special forces into Afghanistan. What I think was a major and very costly mistake was turning a relatively small covert operation into a full scale military invasion and occupation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 4:29 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 98 (614503)
05-04-2011 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Trae
05-04-2011 6:26 AM


Re: Armed men shoot unarmed man in front of wife and children
That title seems to be possibly minimizing the situation. Are the reports of the wife rushing them not correct? How are people to know if the compound is or is not rigged to blow? Or where guns may be stashed? How much risk is it fair to ask the ground forces to take so that someone not cooperating might live? What help might OBL have received from the neighboring area?
The White House released a statement of clarification, stating that bin Laden did not use his wife as a human shield, and that by the time the SEAL's engaged him, he was unarmed. They shot him in the head anyways.
This was, allegedly, after a fierce battle with OBL's body guards and courier, who were armed.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Trae, posted 05-04-2011 6:26 AM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2011 8:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 90 by Trae, posted 05-08-2011 6:22 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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