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Author Topic:   Money Isn't a False God
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 150 (614275)
05-03-2011 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
05-03-2011 7:34 AM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
PD writes:

I expect those who consider money to be a false god will explain how they feel money can be presented as a deity, false or otherwise. How is money worshiped? Wanting something doesn't mean it is viewed as a deity or is a deity.

I realize that one religion is going to say that a competing religion's god is false, but people don't actually worship money. Money is necessary for survival in most places. Oddly enough, even churches require money to survive.

Everything that competes with the Christian God for our attention isn't automatically a false deity.

To be a false deity, wouldn't it need to be considered a deity by someone and actually worshiped?

In some respects, the phrase, "a false god" is a figure of speech. It would be similar to a man saying that his "woman" was his boat. I have had problems with placing things on a pedestal, money included. Money can make life really comfortable for awhile...what the heck is God gonna do for you that money cannot buy? (perhaps heal you..I suppose) The meaning of the phrase "thou shalt have no other gods before me" depends on who is uttering it. If God Herself was saying such a command, it is a bit laughable, since by definition no other god can even compete anyway. Will the real source of reality please stand up? PD, since you don't feel that money is a god, I can say that for you, it isn't. Some people even warn us not to let our intellects get in the way of our belief....which jar will find silly, but which means that God (by belief of personal definition) transcends our very ability and responsibility to question and define the existence thereof.....(does that make any sense?)

How is money worshiped?
Have you ever had a rich Uncle? Funny how we always seem to be more concerned with how wealthier relatives and friends feel about us than we do the poorer ones. Its the same way with God. We want what God has and can do more than wanting God for who He is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 05-03-2011 7:34 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 05-03-2011 1:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 150 (884160)
01-24-2021 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-01-2011 10:16 AM


Reopening An Old Thread
Moving this conversation from The Biden Presidency thread. I believe that once Covid simmers down, the next looming challenge for the Biden administration will center around money. And I guyarantee you that nothing will rile up the Right Wing as much as any careless talk about reparations towards any one group of people exclusivly to the exclusion of others. Kamala best back off from any suggestions in that direction.

Our discussion started with a joke by anglagard, which triggered my reaction.
Message 46 Message 47

Imagine the reaction that many of you had to the Trump tax cuts. As strongly as you may feel against that, I feel twice as repulsed by any suggestion of reparations. We are not paying either the Native Americans nor the African Americans anything back. We simply do not have it. (And the few who do will find ways to protect it) Everyone needs to simply bury any hatchets and try to get along in the future. Stirring up old arguments will simply reopen wounds and pour gasoline on racism. Move along...nothing to see here.

PD (Topic Starter) writes:

This isn't about which gods are false, but what constitutes a false god. I have noticed many times Christians have made the comment that money and power are false gods. I assume it stems from the verses in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13 that state one cannot serve two masters. One can't serve God and money.

I disagree that money or power are on the level with a deity.
I disagree that money or power are worshiped.(...)The teaching means we shouldn't be stingy with material wealth.

But I would argue that we cant simply hand out stimulus checks and pay people back for 300 year injustices.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 05-01-2011 10:16 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2021 4:26 AM Phat has responded
 Message 110 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2021 4:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 150 (884165)
01-24-2021 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by vimesey
01-24-2021 5:13 AM


Re: Reopening An Old Thread
I have always had enough common sense to realize that trickle-down economics did not work. My point about the money was that since you couldn't get blood out of a turnip (the top 10%) than neither did raising taxes on an already strapped working class. Its nothing more than all of us digging deeper to pay the bills. For some of us who have wisely saved, we will be able to pay for what is agreed to be necessary to pay and to let the rest ride on long term national debt. My point was also that, politically, we all wont agree on what should be paid.
Wiki writes:

In 1896, Democratic presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan described the concept using the metaphor of a "leak" in his Cross of Gold speech:

There are two ideas of government. There are those who believe that if you just legislate to make the well-to-do prosperous, that their prosperity will leak through on those below. The Democratic idea has been that if you legislate to make the masses prosperous their prosperity will find its way up and through every class that rests upon it.

Humorist Will Rogers jokingly advised in a column in 1932:

This election was lost four and six years ago, not this year. They (Republicans) didn't start thinking of the old common fellow till just as they started out on the election tour. The money was all appropriated for the top in the hopes that it would trickle down to the needy. Mr. Hoover was an engineer. He knew that water trickles down. Put it uphill and let it go and it will reach the driest little spot. But he didn't know that money trickled up. Give it to the people at the bottom and the people at the top will have it before night, anyhow. But it will at least have passed through the poor fellow's hands. They saved the big banks, but the little ones went up the flue.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by vimesey, posted 01-24-2021 5:13 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by vimesey, posted 01-24-2021 10:41 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 150 (884167)
01-24-2021 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by AZPaul3
01-24-2021 4:26 AM


Re: Reopening An Old Thread
AZPaul3 writes:

Before you get your panties in a knot about some supposed reparation payments to people we kept economically and socially depressed for 300 years, look at where our nation's wealth is going right now. It ain't pretty.

I am no economist, but I do notice certain things. Lets take Covid. In January of 2020, the stock market was riding high and Trump was gloating about all he had supposedly done to make it so. Like the ignoramus that he is, he minimized the severity of Covid until it shut everything down and the markets tankled. I noticed that in 8 short months (in time for elections) the markets rebounded...a fact which did not seem right. The stocks in my late Mothers portfolio regained their value...which was a relief for us personally...we would have had to sell our (her) houses otherwise in order to care for her. But as I said before, something did not look nor feel right about that voodoo recovery in the midst of lowered taxes on the wealthy, increasing global debt and many workers being laid off during the pandemic.

So I searched the numbers and found that one little figure stood out. The M1 (or was it M2?) money supply had quadrupled in those 8 months. Being no economist, I could not grasp the significance of that fact, but my intuition tells me that we (Biden Administration) will see much higher inflation in the near to mid future (within his term) as the numbers readjust globally and pressure eases on China in its evil quest for global supremacy And this is what I haate about the very concepts of globalism and the demise of nationalism. The rich stay the way they always are and were, the US middle(working) class pays an ever increasing bill, our salaries and living standards stagnate, and all of these poor impoverished masses become wealthier. No wonder the Populists were elected 4 years ago. They felt cheated. For them, Nationalism was preferable to Kum Ba Yah, godless humanistic global peace at the expense of our wallet!!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 01-24-2021 4:26 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 115 of 150 (884168)
01-24-2021 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by vimesey
01-24-2021 10:41 AM


Trickling Down And Paying It Up The Nose
vimesey writes:

I'm not saying that you and I should fork out more - I'm saying that it's reasonable that people who wonder whether to buy a fifth billion dollar yacht this year should pay more towards the benefit of a society which has allowed them to buy their first four billion dollar yachts.

The thing is, vimesey, it seems that we the people have never been able to force the rich to pay their fair share. They always skip out on the party and leave us with the bill. One reason that I despise reparations so much is that you can hand stimulus checks to impoverished people who do not know how to handle money and they will spend it all on rent and food and still never get ahead. In essence, we collectively take on a burden for other people that there is no payoff from. Im not saying to be greedy and heartless, however. Im saying that compassion and altruism depletes ones savings and retirement portfolio, does not help the economy recover, and basically gives a struggling middle class one more reason to complain.

Perhaps the title of this old thread sums it all up.

We can either die with more money or die in the knowledge that we helped feed a few poor people first. For the former, money becomes a false god. For the latter, I suppose Jesus would be happier with us.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by vimesey, posted 01-24-2021 10:41 AM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 01-24-2021 11:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 117 of 150 (884170)
01-24-2021 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
05-03-2011 11:47 AM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
ringo writes:

I think that's why some people equate gods with money. Both can magically get us what we want. False gods can get us what we think we want but "the real God" can get us what we really, really want.

Human wisdom and ingenuity has been able to get us what we think we want. It has also gotten us what we need to survive. It has even exposed many of the gods as fake creations and stories of our own making.
Placating the masses as it were.
The opium of the people.
But the real God can indeed get us what we know we need, even if we don't want to suffer too much to get it.

Perhaps a question could be whether we all need to agree on who the real God actually is. I know that I wont change my vote from Jesus.

If Allah turned out to be the real "God" He would have to smite me or cause me to cease to ever exist, for I would never change my mind.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 05-03-2011 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2021 3:56 PM Phat has responded
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 03-23-2021 12:23 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 150 (884172)
01-24-2021 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Tangle
01-24-2021 3:56 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
Quite mad. Quite, quite mad.
Not at all. You grew up Catholic. Most of you guys dont ever get to know Jesus anyway. (of course many of us don't either)
but what you must realize is that once you do actually *know* God, you don't simply switch.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2021 3:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2021 4:17 PM Phat has responded
 Message 121 by jar, posted 01-24-2021 4:37 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 150 (884176)
01-24-2021 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
01-24-2021 4:37 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
my belief is t that 1) GOD is not a relativistic concept
2) Jesus Himself is what makes GOD absolute

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 01-24-2021 4:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 01-25-2021 6:50 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 150 (884186)
01-25-2021 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
01-25-2021 6:50 AM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
jar writes:

Phat, once again you are simply marketing your own brand of snake oil and it still has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

We all market our own snake oil. The topic concerns a "false god" and the possibility or suggestion that money be it. I am simply attempting to nail down what is and is not an absolute truth (the right choice) in regards to GOD, God, and god. While you are correct in that I am most definitely marketing Jesus Christ as the only possible way, I have long since concluded that your chosen argument is and always has been contrary to that assertion. (which begs the question of why on earth you claim to represent Christianity---since to you it is entirely an altruistic philosophy of community service--no God required. ) but what "God" the Jews market is irrelevant to my point. The Jews either will wake up and realize that Jesus directly represents their "God" or they won't. That is not for us to determine. And you are simply defending the idea that since humans create their own Gods, relativism is fair game. I would of course argue that you were intellectually deceived.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 01-25-2021 6:50 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 01-25-2021 12:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 125 of 150 (884187)
01-25-2021 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Straggler
05-11-2011 5:10 PM


Money May Occupy A Lot Of A Persons Time
Straggler, to PD writes:

Nobody is suggesting that those who can be said to "worship" money are going to setup their prayer mats outside the local branch of HSBC. In the sense of being directly comparable to a supernatural being worthy of appeasement through worship you are right that the two things are incomparable. But that isn't what people mean when they say money is a false god (IMHO).

We quite legitimately and meaningfully use words like "worship" or "idolize" and even "god" to mean things beyond their strict religiously related definition.

For example David Beckham is (or at least was) referred to as a football god. He is arguably idolised and worshiped in a genuine sense of the word that has everything to do with a devout following and nothing to do with being a supernatural entity that needs to be appeased. The use of these terms in such a context is kinda metaphorical and kinda literal in a non-religious sense of the terms being used.

Good point. Many of the so-called "gods" that we latch on to are nothing more than football players, Penthouse Centerfolds, or gun and pen collections. And upon observation, no one would suggest a collector actually groveling on the floor and worshiping their collection.

What one may find, however, is that the object of "reverence" or excessive interest often takes up a large percentage of that persons time and focus on a daily basis. A coin collector, for example may not do anything more than spend a great deal of time finding more coins to add to his collection.

And while none of us can really judge the intentions of another, we can draw a corollary between traditional worship in a religious sense versus attention given to a hobby and how much daily time it actually occupies. One spends more time with those (things) which they love.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Straggler, posted 05-11-2011 5:10 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 129 of 150 (885108)
03-23-2021 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
03-23-2021 12:23 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
Again, no. He is infallible. He draws me. Loki never did. Nor did the Spaghetti Monster
You can use the argument that I simply believe what my culture believes, but I wont argue otherwise. One useful stat would be if we knew how many from other cultures seek Jesus and correspondingly how many from our culture seek Allah or Ganesh or rabbit.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 03-23-2021 12:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 03-23-2021 1:56 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 03-24-2021 12:09 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 130 of 150 (885109)
03-23-2021 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Tangle
01-24-2021 4:17 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
Oh hush. Jesus is not limited to a character in the book, though I know you think otherwise. And how on earth could you know what Jesus tells me regarding money?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2021 4:17 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 150 (885124)
03-24-2021 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ringo
03-24-2021 12:09 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
Nonsense. What you are trying to argue is that a free will decision to believe is based on probability rather than communion. Feel free to stand on that argument till the cows come home but there is a 100% chance that im not buying it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 03-24-2021 12:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by AZPaul3, posted 03-24-2021 1:54 PM Phat has responded
 Message 135 by jar, posted 03-24-2021 2:33 PM Phat has responded
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 03-25-2021 12:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 150 (885127)
03-24-2021 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
03-24-2021 2:33 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
Now I fully expect you will plead willful ignorance yet again by claiming Asimov was an atheist.
I have reconsidered asimov for several reasons.
1) He was also Jewish. One cannot escape that anointing even if they claim atheism.
2) He was a skillful writer and knew how to tell a story.
Thus I found the book and downloaded it for free.

YOU and all of the Christian Cult of Ignorance make the error of placing SOURCE over content.

SOURCE is every bit as important as CONTENT when it comes to describing a God who is the Creator of all seen and unseen. That fact alone is the ultimate definition of SOURCE. Some may well argue (or at least assert) that humans are the SOURCE for all written material ever found. The argument can then focus on the CONTENT of the human character in one culture versus another. To dismiss SOURCE is to hand your belief over to science and make choosing the correct God a matter of probability and culture. I choose to reject this argument.
My critics may rightfully claim that I am not being a good critical thinker and engaging in selective bias. I will plead guilty to that with no regret.

jar writes:

You dismiss reality and honesty and evidence and facts all in the name of your Willful Ignorance.

You have no clear understanding of reality. If, however, you think that all knowledge and understanding was built solely on human wisdom and acquired knowledge, you will tend to think in those terms. Science is but a tool. Critical thinking and the empirical method are recent developments and are not the holy grail.

I'm not simply on the same level as someone who believed in a flat earth or Santa Claus. I believe though cannot so far prove that I was strongly influenced by a SOURCE outside of human understanding. You always say that I cannot argue for the goodness or badness of this SOURCE or wheteher IT even exists as opposed to my having been influenced by a carny barker or a bad burrito. I consider your argument yet I never stop at it.

Anyway, here is an excerpt I read from Asimovs Guide:

ASIMOV'S GUIDE TO THE BIBLE page 772

Am reading Asimov now. Your shaming worked.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 03-24-2021 2:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 03-24-2021 3:44 PM Phat has responded
 Message 147 by DrJones*, posted 03-24-2021 8:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15355
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 150 (885130)
03-24-2021 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by AZPaul3
03-24-2021 1:54 PM


Re: Money Isn't a Deity
But dont you see what you are doing? You are attempting to frame all of human understanding on the scientific method, a rather recent development. You are claiming infallibility using this method, even though the method itself is not infallible. You and ringo are attempting to trivialize belief with the assumption that no actual God exists. You are suggesting that some humans, armed with a methodology and critical thought discipline, can define the validity of the freewilled beliefs of others. Again, the mistake you make is assuming that no God exists. I reject your argument as well. And no, you cannot use your argument to prove me wrong. I have a free will and I have a brain the equal of any of yours.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by AZPaul3, posted 03-24-2021 1:54 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 03-24-2021 3:55 PM Phat has responded
 Message 146 by AZPaul3, posted 03-24-2021 6:43 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 03-25-2021 12:23 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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