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Author Topic:   Support for Louisiana repeal effort
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2587 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 46 of 108 (615155)
05-10-2011 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tram law
05-10-2011 12:54 PM


Re: Evidence
Tram law writes:

It's never been okay for me to be wrong. Every single time I'm wrong people call me a retard or a child or insult me to no end.

I know how that feels. I once got roasted by Dr Adequate for one of the many, many math errors that I've made while making an argument here, and it was not pleasant. It helps to have a healthy dose of humility. I figure that there are people here who know things that I do not, and it can only do me good to make a mistake and then be corrected. It's one of the best ways to learn.

In my college, where all the classes were small seminars, we used to say that if you haven't changed your mind about something by the end of a discussion, then you haven't learned anything.

Stay calm, respect the local customs, and be grateful for the opportunity to change your mind.


Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 12:54 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 2382 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


(1)
Message 47 of 108 (615170)
05-11-2011 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tram law
05-09-2011 11:10 AM


Hi Tram, thanks for the question.

Tram law writes:

Shouldn't this be a state issue and left to the Louisianans determine for themselves?

No. But even if it were generally the case, the law itself was developed and shaped by outside agitators in the Discovery Institute. The LLF which pushed for the law has strong ties to the Family Research Council in Washington, DC. These laws being pushed in various states are the result of individuals working on the national stage trying to shape national policies, they are not generated due to grass-roots movement within states.

Also, state rights are more of a protection against certain specific intrusions, though not all intrusions, by other governments, Im not aware of any state right that prevents those from outside from criticizing the laws of another state. In the US we fought a war in part to reasert that states are part of a republic.

Further, the various US states influence each other when their representatives shape Federal funding and educational laws.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 11:10 AM Tram law has not yet responded

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 2382 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


(1)
Message 48 of 108 (615172)
05-11-2011 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tram law
05-09-2011 1:10 PM


Tram law writes:

Because, really, it's none of their business.


The states are too interconnected to for me to say, thats just what they do over there. I get to be concerned about national education and the overall political health of the country, or so I was taught in civics class. In other words I am not simply a citizen of a state, but also of a republic.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 1:10 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 2382 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 49 of 108 (615175)
05-11-2011 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tram law
05-09-2011 2:30 PM


Tram law writes:

And I have been making actual arguments to the best of my ability.

Edit:

To put it simply, I suck at debate ebcause I'm not an intellectual elitist than can use a hundred thousand different words to describe a black carpenter ant. I don't do semantic bs.

Hi Tram.

This isnt an attack. If you think it is, please ask me to explain what I mean.

Id like to suggest something for you to consider. Perhaps if someone sucks at something they might not actually understand why?

What I am trying to suggest is that perhaps you dont understand debate as well as you believe you do and perhaps debate isnt actually what you might think?

Even if you were to, use a hundred thousand different words to describe a black carpenter ant and do semantic bs your debates here would not be considered much better. It is the case in some places that might be the case in some places, but here, on this forum, the debates themselves dont let people easily hide behind those tactics.

Try to keep an open mind when reading these boards, you should see that the people who want sound arguments point out flaws no matter who makes them. I believe that part of the problem in our society is that we have an unhealthy respect for opinion. All opinions are not valid and not all opinions are equal. We as a society have been suckered into the BS that simply because we have opinions other people must respect opinions. I like to say that opinions are not worth respect, people are.

I also wanted to explain to you that rudeness is often, perhaps always, situational. I might tell a friend to fuck off and not be viewed as rude. Theres no circumstance I can think of where I could do the same to my 94 year old Great, great, great aunt. If I go into a business meeting and someone punches me in the face, probably rude. If Im in a boxing ring, probably not.

The situation and circumstances often determine what is rude and what is not. This forum is a very specific type of forum and has its own culture. Certainly from time to time people are rude here, though more often theyre just being honest, blunt, direct, or simply not respectful of opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 2:30 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 2382 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


(1)
Message 50 of 108 (615176)
05-11-2011 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tram law
05-09-2011 7:41 PM


Re: Evidence
Tram law writes:

That's why religion is needed/ in schools.And children need to be taught what's right and wrong. Not the so called morality of science.

If science is not about morality, then religion is, and it is needed in schools now more than ever.

Not, evolution.

Evolution is no more than science fiction.


Creationism doesnt teach morality. What does a 4k year old Earth belief have to do with morality?

Religious people often say religion should be taught in school. They also blow a gasket when religion is taught in school, unless it is their pet religion.

How much time do you think high schools spend covering Evolution?

Many of the problems we have in this country would be improved by increased science education. We need more science researchers and not less. This country cant even seem to teach high school students what is and is not science and you think we should take time out of science to teach non-science in science class?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 7:41 PM Tram law has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by dwise1, posted 05-11-2011 11:36 AM Trae has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3309
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 51 of 108 (615204)
05-11-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Trae
05-11-2011 7:06 AM


Re: Evidence
Creationism doesnt teach morality.

It does by example. The example of lies, deception, and demogoguery. Fine Christian witness, that.

Many of the problems we have in this country would be improved by increased science education.

Or to quote from memory a past governor of Mississippi who was explaining why he was pushing for education reform:

quote:
We know that ignorance doesn't work, because we've already tried it.

Creationists are pushing for ignorance, which actually works against their own cause. Especially creationists and everyone who wants to oppose evolution need to learn as much as they can about evolution so that they can actually oppose it instead of taking ineffective potshots at the strawman that creationism tells them is evolution.

Plus, if creationists were to change their approach and actually address evolution itself -- OK, and also do so truthfully and honestly (may as well pile on the pipe dreams) -- , then they just might slow down the rate at which they are driving people away in disgust at their religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Trae, posted 05-11-2011 7:06 AM Trae has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Trae, posted 05-12-2011 5:35 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2587 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 52 of 108 (615213)
05-11-2011 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tram law
05-09-2011 7:41 PM


Re: Evidence
Tram law writes:

That's why religion is needed/ in schools.And children need to be taught what's right and wrong.

It's sad that there aren't any churches in Weed, CA where children can learn about religion. Do they only teach biology and physics in Sunday school there?

Edited by ZenMonkey, : Rhetorical clarity.


Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tram law, posted 05-09-2011 7:41 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
menes777
Member (Idle past 2395 days)
Posts: 36
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Joined: 01-25-2010


Message 53 of 108 (615240)
05-11-2011 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tram law
05-10-2011 2:26 PM


Re: Evidence
To get back on Topic Tram

Would you feel any different if Louisana wasn't just including Xian creationism, it would be including Hindu, Muslim, Egyptian, Norse, etc... myths in as valid origins? I can imagine your thoughts would be quite different.

The whole idea behind separating church and state is that whose religion do you support and whose religion do you not? The founding fathers of this country were smart enough to figure out that if favor one group you insult another. So why not just make the government neutral in the matter?

I know your next response is going to be, then why do they favor evolution!? That's a religion! To which I reply it is not a religion. When you can put together a theory that doesn't rely on magic or mythical beings making things out of thin air and dust you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise we should teach that which is supported by thousands of scientists around the world. Not some hucksters who are only interested in staying in business.

Oh yeah and come down from your cross, everyone gets a bloody nose every now and then when debating. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 2:26 PM Tram law has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Tram law, posted 05-11-2011 7:03 PM menes777 has responded

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 2781 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 54 of 108 (615251)
05-11-2011 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by menes777
05-11-2011 4:51 PM


Re: Evidence
Actually I fully believe that religion should be kept out of schools because of how divisive the nature of religion is. Even if I was a Christian, I'd still believe this and promote it. Because Jesus himself was against this sort of thing. He felt that religion should be a private thing. Here's the verses:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6&ver...

Even at its most benign religion is entirely divisive.

Because only the people who properly worship the proper deity get to go to heaven, and nobody else does, no matter how good of a person is. In order to get to heaven, you must follow the tenets of your religion. Nothing else matters.

Biblical support of this comes in this verse is in Mark chapter 10.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010&ver...

If you want modern proof I can give you a link to a couple of you tube examples of how divisive it is.

School should be a place of learning and safety for children. But because they are a captive audience it makes them a popular target for people of any ideology to target and indoctrinate.

Schools should not be for indoctrinating children, regardless of the ideological or religious or political belief. It should be about reading, writing, and mathematics and college should be about job training.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by menes777, posted 05-11-2011 4:51 PM menes777 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Straggler, posted 05-11-2011 7:05 PM Tram law has responded
 Message 56 by Theodoric, posted 05-11-2011 8:03 PM Tram law has not yet responded
 Message 74 by menes777, posted 05-13-2011 4:50 PM Tram law has not yet responded
 Message 80 by hooah212002, posted 05-15-2011 3:37 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 55 of 108 (615252)
05-11-2011 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tram law
05-11-2011 7:03 PM


Re: Evidence
Do you think science should be taught in schools?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Tram law, posted 05-11-2011 7:03 PM Tram law has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Tram law, posted 05-11-2011 8:19 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 56 of 108 (615262)
05-11-2011 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tram law
05-11-2011 7:03 PM


Re: Evidence
Actually I fully believe that religion should be kept out of schools because of how divisive the nature of religion is.

Then why are you supportive of the LA law?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Tram law, posted 05-11-2011 7:03 PM Tram law has not yet responded

    
Tram law
Member (Idle past 2781 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 57 of 108 (615264)
05-11-2011 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Straggler
05-11-2011 7:05 PM


Re: Evidence
Yes, science should be taught in schools.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Straggler, posted 05-11-2011 7:05 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Rahvin, posted 05-12-2011 12:04 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 108 (615268)
05-11-2011 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tram law
05-10-2011 9:34 AM


Re: Evidence
All of this over because I didn't agree with using the retarded reply button.

Right, this is what I mean about "immature." Once, you made a mistake, and someone pointed it out to you.

But you're Tram Law, nobody can tell you anything, you're going to do exactly what you want to do and nothing else, so as soon as someone asked you to use the proper button, it became "retarded." I doubt you would have any opinion whatsoever on the notion of threaded reply buttons if someone hadn't politely asked you to use one.

I didn't do a damned thing wrong in the first place.

No, you didn't. You haven't done anything wrong since. We've not done anything wrong to you. Every single one of these issues is of your own making. Nobody's forcing you to interpret gentle correction as rude haranguing. Nobody's forcing you to respond to suggestions as though anything you didn't personally think of is literally the stupidest thing you've ever heard of.

It's just your immaturity that is making you do all that. I'm sure you'll consider even this post some kind of insult, but that's what I'm talking about.

{Probably a good analysis, but still non-topic - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide plus note.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tram law, posted 05-10-2011 9:34 AM Tram law has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tram law, posted 05-11-2011 8:55 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 2781 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 59 of 108 (615274)
05-11-2011 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by crashfrog
05-11-2011 8:31 PM


Re: Evidence
If you want me to drop it and move on, stop bringing this up. Otherwise you're being very rude. I've already dropped it and moved on.

{Non-topic material hidden - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide and note.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 05-11-2011 8:31 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-11-2011 9:04 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 60 of 108 (615275)
05-11-2011 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Tram law
05-11-2011 8:55 PM


Relevant to topic material only, please
Tram, quit your sniveling.

To all - Please, only messages directly relevant to the topic theme.

Otherwise, it's gotten to the "suspensions are going to happen" stage.

Adminnemooseus

Added by edit:

Gripes relating to moderation? Take it to the "Whine List" topic. Whining in this topic is cause for suspension.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.


Please be familiar with the various topics and other links in the "Essential Links", found in the top of the page menu. Amongst other things, this is where to find where to report various forum problems.
This message is a reply to:
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