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Author Topic:   Wombat Pouch
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 85 (705116)
08-23-2013 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Big_Al35
08-23-2013 6:39 AM


Why has nature not produced this?
Why hasn't the Intelligent Designer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2013 6:39 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2013 9:03 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 878 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 47 of 85 (705322)
08-26-2013 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2013 9:41 AM


Why has nature not produced this?
Why hasn't the Intelligent Designer?
Depends on whether you are an evolutionist or a creationist. I have left the question open for all to answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2013 9:41 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-26-2013 10:03 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 48 of 85 (705325)
08-26-2013 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Big_Al35
08-23-2013 6:39 AM


Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
The answer to that question is really simple; it just hasn't happened yet.
There is no plan, no goal, no direction to evolution since we got past the very first simplest life forms. What we see in nature and all living critters is "just goodnuff to get by".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2013 6:39 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Big_Al35, posted 08-30-2013 10:36 AM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 49 of 85 (705335)
08-26-2013 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Big_Al35
08-26-2013 9:03 AM


Depends on whether you are an evolutionist or a creationist. I have left the question open for all to answer.
Mmhmm, riiight. Its not just an honest question. You're acting as if that question should cast doubt onto the theory of evolution. What it casts doubt on, is that trying to provide you with an answer wouldn't be a waste of time.
Do you understand anything about evolution? The fact that you asked that question suggests that you don't know much.
The answer can range from about 10 words to about 10,000 words.
Open questions to all aren't really good ways to spark discussion. We need more from you to figure where to come from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2013 9:03 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 50 of 85 (705421)
08-26-2013 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Big_Al35
08-23-2013 6:39 AM


If you climb a tree you do have to get back down too. Have you ever seen a koala traverse downwards? Much more useful for a koala would be a sideways facing pouch. Why has nature not produced this? Even better would be a pouch that rotates at the flick of a switch.
Or for the modern marsupial ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2013 6:39 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 51 of 85 (705480)
08-27-2013 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Big_Al35
08-23-2013 6:39 AM


BA writes:
Even better would be a pouch that rotates at the flick of a switch. A gentle spin speed would be natures very own merry go round.
Good idea. The fact this doesn't exist suggests that if there is an inteligent designer he/she is not even as clever as you are.....

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 Message 45 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2013 6:39 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 878 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 52 of 85 (705663)
08-30-2013 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
08-26-2013 9:24 AM


Re: Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
jar writes:
There is no plan, no goal, no direction to evolution since we got past the very first simplest life forms. What we see in nature and all living critters is "just goodnuff to get by".
Given that evolution works on the principle of "just goodnuff", it really doesn't matter that much which way the pouch faces. Nature however, operates in a symmetrical fashion, with pouches facing upwards or downwards. We don't find any pouches at a 30 or 45 degree slant which should be perfectly acceptable. Pouches fashioned so that they are 180 degrees opposed suggests that design has played a part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 08-26-2013 9:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-30-2013 10:45 AM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-30-2013 12:34 PM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 55 by dronestar, posted 08-30-2013 12:41 PM Big_Al35 has not replied
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-30-2013 3:12 PM Big_Al35 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 53 of 85 (705664)
08-30-2013 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Big_Al35
08-30-2013 10:36 AM


Re: Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
Nonsense. It suggests no such thing. It's not a matter of what is acceptable, only what is. And there is no evidence of design or any designer.
AbE:
In fact, take a look at Koalas. They live in trees and yet their pouch opens at the bottom. If there was a designer then that designer is about as bright as a burned out light bulb.
That has led to a whole bunch of Rube Goldberg features in the Koalas.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Big_Al35, posted 08-30-2013 10:36 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 85 (705674)
08-30-2013 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Big_Al35
08-30-2013 10:36 AM


Re: Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
Pouches fashioned so that they are 180 degrees opposed suggests that design has played a part.
Can you walk me through the logic on that one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Big_Al35, posted 08-30-2013 10:36 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1425
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 55 of 85 (705677)
08-30-2013 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Big_Al35
08-30-2013 10:36 AM


eyes, asymmetrically on the same side
Nature however, operates in a symmetrical fashion
Eyes, asymmetrically on the same side (Wide-Eyed-Flounder) . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Big_Al35, posted 08-30-2013 10:36 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 56 of 85 (705697)
08-30-2013 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Big_Al35
08-30-2013 10:36 AM


Re: Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
Given that evolution works on the principle of "just goodnuff", it really doesn't matter that much which way the pouch faces. Nature however, operates in a symmetrical fashion, with pouches facing upwards or downwards. We don't find any pouches at a 30 or 45 degree slant which should be perfectly acceptable. Pouches fashioned so that they are 180 degrees opposed suggests that design has played a part.
You're not taking into account developmental constraints. Genes affecting the exterior of the body are going to be symmetrical in their effect, because it would actually be quite hard to set up a new system distinguishing between the left and right side of the body.
We can see this in mutations such as antennapedia, which gives fruit-flies legs where their antenna should be. Always legs plural --- there is no mutation that makes them lopsided, because you'd need a whole new biochemical system to tell the developing fly's body how to break the symmetry. It doesn't take a lot of care and fine-tuning to make the mutation come out symmetrical in its effect --- it would, on the contrary, take a marvel of bioengineering to make it asymmetric. The same could be said of other well-known mutations, such as those giving fruit-flies white eyes or an extra pair of wings.
In short, being asymmetric is difficult. So "given that evolution works on the principle of "just goodnuff"", asymmetry won't be produced without a very good reason, whereas symmetry is the lazy way of doing things and occurs by default.
So you wouldn't even need natural selection to explain the laterally symmetric placement of the pouches --- it's in the nature of mutations to produce lateral symmetry in animals which are already laterally symmetric. Whereas your argument seems to depend implicitly on the idea that a feature produced by mutation might as well have a 30 or 45 degree skew as be symmetric.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Big_Al35, posted 08-30-2013 10:36 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Big_Al35, posted 09-04-2013 4:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 878 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 57 of 85 (705916)
09-04-2013 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dr Adequate
08-30-2013 3:12 PM


Re: Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
Dr Adequate writes:
In short, being asymmetric is difficult. So "given that evolution works on the principle of "just goodnuff"", asymmetry won't be produced without a very good reason, whereas symmetry is the lazy way of doing things and occurs by default.
This all sounds very plausible initially but a little bit of investigation would have revealed to you that internally we are far from symmetrical. The heart, the colon, intestines, stomach, appendix, pancreas not to mention others are all asymmetric.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-30-2013 3:12 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Theodoric, posted 09-04-2013 9:10 AM Big_Al35 has replied
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-04-2013 11:43 AM Big_Al35 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 58 of 85 (705939)
09-04-2013 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Big_Al35
09-04-2013 4:12 AM


Re: Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
You really should do some basic research before you spout off.
quote:
Symmetry in biology is the balanced distribution of duplicate body parts or shapes. In nature and biology, symmetry is approximate. For example, plant leaves, while considered symmetric, rarely match up exactly when folded in half. Symmetry creates a class of patterns in nature, where the near-repetition of the pattern element is by reflection or rotation. The body plans of most multicellular organisms exhibit some form of symmetry, whether radial symmetry, bilateral symmetry or "spherical symmetry"
Symmetry in biology - Wikipedia
Took me all of 10 seconds to find that.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Big_Al35, posted 09-04-2013 4:12 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Big_Al35, posted 09-04-2013 10:22 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 67 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-05-2013 9:08 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Big_Al35
Member (Idle past 878 days)
Posts: 389
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 59 of 85 (705943)
09-04-2013 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Theodoric
09-04-2013 9:10 AM


Re: Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
Theoderic writes:
Took me all of 10 seconds to find that.
And your point is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Theodoric, posted 09-04-2013 9:10 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Theodoric, posted 09-04-2013 12:34 PM Big_Al35 has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 60 of 85 (705955)
09-04-2013 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Big_Al35
09-04-2013 4:12 AM


Re: Because nature doesn't do anything by design.
This all sounds very plausible initially but a little bit of investigation would have revealed to you that internally we are far from symmetrical. The heart, the colon, intestines, stomach, appendix, pancreas not to mention others are all asymmetric.
Credit me with a little common knowledge. I know that, which is why I explicitly said "Genes affecting the exterior of the body are going to be symmetrical in their effect". The same does not apply to the internal organs, and so if a mammal underwent a mutation giving it (for example) an extra liver, one might well expect that to be asymmetric, since livers are as a rule produced asymmetrically. But the pouch is not an internal organ.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Big_Al35, posted 09-04-2013 4:12 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Big_Al35, posted 09-04-2013 3:07 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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