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Author Topic:   We are DOOMED, Sat may 21, 2011
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 100 of 229 (616395)
05-21-2011 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Buzsaw
05-21-2011 8:31 AM


Re: More Bad Stuff Ahead For The US
Buzsaw writes:
Whether you believe it or not, Biblical apprised folk see it as indicative to the prophecies pertaining to our treatment of God's restored messianic nation, Israel, in place for the messianic millennium emerging.
There are a number of us who take the Bible very seriously that have a great deal of trouble with your view.
Personally I tend to be pro Israel but that does not mean that I am going to agree with their foreign policy all the time, or even much of the time. They are in a very difficult situation, as I agree that their neighbour's policy is that they shouldn't exist in that area at all and would be happy to see all Jews gone from the area by any means necessary.
Those that are Biblically apprised understand that Jesus brought a different way of dealing with those who oppose us. He told the Israelites of His day that if they maintained their militancy in dealing with the Romans that within the lives of some of them they would see Jerusalem crushed and the Temple destroyed. (Which of course happened.)
This is from Matthew 5 or the "Sermon on the Mount".
quote:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven ; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same ? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same ? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I don't see any nation following these rather basic principles.
I good example of a case where that actually was followed was in the last century. After WW I the Germans were treated punitively with the "Treaty of Versailles". This certainly played a role in allowing Nazism to come to power. After WW II was over, the west, (primarily the US to their eternal credit), helped rebuild the countries of their former enemies. The result of course is that we now have positive, productive, and friendly relations between countries that were sworn enemies.
Israel spends a great deal of time and money on advanced military equipment. Just maybe they could spend that money helping their Arab neighbours to build up their own territories. I agree that this would not solve the problem over night, but as Christians we should believe that in the long term it will. At least according to Jesus it would be the right thing to do.
Edited by GDR, : numerous mistakes as I was a bit rushed

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 05-21-2011 8:31 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Buzsaw, posted 05-22-2011 10:36 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 127 of 229 (616502)
05-22-2011 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Buzsaw
05-22-2011 10:36 PM


Re: More Bad Stuff Ahead For The US
Buzsaw writes:
Are you aware that their Arab neighbors, about 20 to 1 in population are capable of building up their own territories? Why should tiny Israel need to do their work for them when their primary interest is driving Israel into the sea? The Palestinians don't even show Israel on the map in their schools. They don't want peace with Israel. Look on the map at all of the Arab land, but they want Israel after the Jews went in and turned a desolate land into a fruitful and fertile industrious land.
In 1500 years the Arabs have made nothing of their vast territories. Why do you think they will now?
I think you missed my point. You are going back to an "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". The reason for doing it is because that Is what Jesus says we're to do, and as Jesus is the fulfillment of the Hebrew scriptures that is what Israel should do.
Read again the quote that I used from Matthew 5 above. That is the message that we get consistently through the Gospels. Love our enemy, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc.
Paul in his letter to the Ephesians gives us the weapons that we have been given and are to use. Why not at least give Jesus a try.
quote:
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore , take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, 15 and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE ; 16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, 19 and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,
We are made in God's image we aren't supposed to make him in ours.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Buzsaw, posted 05-22-2011 10:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Buzsaw, posted 05-22-2011 11:15 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 133 of 229 (616521)
05-23-2011 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Buzsaw
05-22-2011 11:15 PM


Re: More Bad Stuff Ahead For The US
Buzsaw writes:
That quote is for Christian believers, GDR. It's not addressed to nations. It's a non sequitur.
I hate to be critical but I think Buz that you should spend some time reading the Bible in big chunks so that you get the context. The Hebrew Scriptures were all about the story of Israel as a nation. It was about Israel as a nation being given God's message of loving your neighbour, how they more often than not abused the message, the story of exile and exodus from both Egypt and from sin, with their story climaxing in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus as told in the NT.
Jesus fulfilled the Hebrew scriptures and established His kingdom, his church to be His agents of His restorative love and justice for the world. We are called to act in community.
Jesus continuously called for His people, first centuries Jews, the Jewish NATION, not to respond militarily to the Romans as it would only lead to disaster which it did.
Here is another quote from the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5.
quote:
13 "You are the salt of the earth ; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. 14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden
We are to be the New Jerusalem, the new city on the hill. It isn't all about individuals. It is also about cities and nations. It was the Pharisees, amongst others that were agitating to overthrow Roman rule in Judea. It was the Pharisees that Jesus was constantly at odds with for this as well as for their legalism.
I quote from my favourite author says that, "if you fight evil with evil, evil is bound to win".
As G K Chesterton said:
quote:
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.
Maybe it is time we gave it a try
We aren't to fudge Christianity into what we want it to be. We are meant to take it as it is. We are to take Jesus at His word.
Buzsaw writes:
When I predicted more bad stuff for the US, I really hoped it would be later than sooner. I said it could happen the next day, but didn't really expect it to come that soon. I hope nobody here is from Joplin.
Again from Matthew 5 - the Sermon on the Mount:
quote:
for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous
Stuff happens. What you are doing is attributing evil to God. That is not the God that we see incarnate in Jesus Christ. That is a god of vengeance, not the Christian God of restorative justice.
CNN writes:
"These storms have caused extensive damage across Missouri, and they continue to pose significant risk to lives and property," Nixon said in a statement. "As a state, we are deploying every agency and resource available to keep Missouri families safe, search for the missing, provide emergency medical care, and begin to recover."
This is where God is in Joplin. He is in the hearts of those that are caring for and loving the victims of that disaster. His heart grieves for all human suffering.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Buzsaw, posted 05-22-2011 11:15 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Taz, posted 05-23-2011 2:25 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 136 of 229 (616525)
05-23-2011 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Taz
05-23-2011 2:25 AM


Re: More Bad Stuff Ahead For The US
Taz writes:
So... we should have signed a treaty with Nazi Germany and let it exterminate all the "undesirables" as well as leveling Russia?
Sorry to invoke godwin's law, but your quote is as meaningless as... I can't even find the word to describe how nonsensical this quote is. Sure, it sounds nice and all, but it has no bearing for reality.
Sure there is a time for self defence, and frankly I don't have an easy answer about how you turn the other cheek on behalf of someone else.
Essentially what I'm saying is that we have to look at our motivation for what we do. It should never be about power, vengeance, money or influence. I would agree that the war against Nazism was justified, but I think what is important, (as I said earlier in this thread), were the actions after the war. The western Allies, primarily the US, were instrumental in the rebuilding of post-war Germany.
The point is that war is shouldn't be about individuals or nations. It is about ideas and ideology and in the long run you can't impose an ideology based on loving your neighbour by dropping bombs on people. As an ex-member of the military myself I do understand that there is such a thing as a just war but it should be a last resort, and as I said we should have a good understanding of our motivation for entering into conflict.
I entered into this thread as I was disturbed about Buzsaw's comments on the US President's position on the boundaries of Israel. Whether he was right to do that or not I don't know. I do know though, that many people have died, in a tit for tat conflict that has gone on for years, and nothing has been solved.
There just has to be a better way.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Taz, posted 05-23-2011 2:25 AM Taz has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 166 of 229 (616615)
05-23-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Buzsaw
05-23-2011 7:19 AM


Re: More Bad Stuff Ahead For The US
Buzsaw writes:
The prophecy did not pertain to parties. It pertained to nations AND individuals. take note As for who's sins; did you vote for Obama? Unfortunately, we all suffer, not by Jehovah, but for the stupidity of too many sheeple voters, ignorant or apathetic of Jehovah's warnings and ignoring the warnings all over the net as to the enemy of America who promised to change this nation into a socialist state, dependent upon foreign energy, shutting down our coal mines and restricting oil production.
I'm not sure how to say this nicely Buz but IMHO you are guilty of the very same thing that Jesus accused the Pharisees of. They took their nationalistic agenda and worshipped a god that fit their agenda. You have taken your right wing American agenda and by twisting the scriptures into the shape that fits that agenda you have created a god in your own image.
I'm not arguing your politics, but what I am arguing is your assumption that God is a card carrying member of the Republican party.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Buzsaw, posted 05-23-2011 7:19 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Buzsaw, posted 05-23-2011 10:03 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 173 of 229 (616688)
05-23-2011 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Buzsaw
05-23-2011 10:03 PM


Re: More Bad Stuff Ahead For The US
Buzsaw writes:
Don't say Jehovah is an evil god. He is the god of blessings to those who fear and acknowledge that he is god and that Israel is his nation as the Bible says. He is merciful in forewarning the nations how to be blessed and avoid the curse. Like Pharaoh and Egypt, if they ignore his warnings and pursue Israel for their demise, Jehovah will pursue them for their demise. The same goes for the US. So long as we send billions in aid to them, build up their armies and cities and undermine God's nation, parting their land, God will keep his curse promise.
It takes an unbelievably twisted view of Holy Scripture to come up with a view like that Buz. You have turned a God of love, forgiveness and restorative justice into a god of vengeance and tyranny. I find it incredibly sad that someone who claims to be a follower of the Hebrew God as revealed in Jesus could hold these views.
I'm sorry if I sound judgemental but it frankly it just makes me very sad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Buzsaw, posted 05-23-2011 10:03 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Taz, posted 05-24-2011 1:17 AM GDR has replied
 Message 198 by Buzsaw, posted 05-25-2011 11:02 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 176 of 229 (616697)
05-24-2011 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Taz
05-24-2011 1:17 AM


Re: More Bad Stuff Ahead For The US
Taz writes:
What fantasy holy scripture are you referring to? Have you read the old testament lately?
That's the thing isn't it. If you insist on taking the Bible as being ghost written by God then you wind up with a schizophrenic god. I mentioned that we are talking about God as revealed through Jesus Christ.
I've just gone through all this on another thread. If you are genuinely interested in my position I've outlined it as best I can here.
Inerrancy

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Taz, posted 05-24-2011 1:17 AM Taz has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 201 of 229 (617118)
05-26-2011 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Buzsaw
05-25-2011 11:02 PM


Re: More Bad Stuff Ahead For The US
Buzsaw writes:
GDR, with all due respect for your sincerity, perhaps you need to be advised about who Jehovah is. He is the sovereign god of the Universe.. Israel happens to be his chosen messianic nation. Nations who mess it it get messed up by Jehovah, just as Egypt did after defying Jehovah and pursuing his people. He richly blesses all who will humble themselves before him but he, like dynamite must be feared by all. All who defy him will eventually receive his judgment and vengeance!
Let's start with your the last sentence Buz.
quote:
The messianic prophecies state that all of the nations of the world and the island folk will acknowledge Jehovah, one day.
That is one of the main points that you are missing.
We have two covenants. Jesus was the fulfillment of the first covenant.
Mark 1:
quote:
14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent and believe in the gospel."
Matthew 26
quote:
54 "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way ?" 55 At that time Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a robber ? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me. 56 "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.
Luke in Chap 21 relates of Jesus saying that all things that were written will be finally fulfilled because the Israelites would not follow his way of peace and would be devastated by Roman armies.
quote:
19 "By your endurance you will gain your lives. 20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city ; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
And from Matthew 5
quote:
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets ; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
This is from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary
quote:
transitive verb
1archaic : to make full : fill
2a : to put into effect : execute b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) c : to bring to an end d : to measure up to : satisfy
3a : to convert into reality b : to develop the full potentialities of
This is the whole meaning of what Jesus was about. The Hebrew Scriptures had been fulfilled. The anointed one, the Messiah had finally come, and more that that Yahweh had returned to His people in the man Jesus and established the Messiah as King.
The problem for the Israelites was that they all hoped that the Messiah would lead them in victory over their enemies and God himself or His representative would be made King and the Temple would be restored and Yahweh would return to the Temple.
Jesus' message was yes, but it doesn't look like that. The Scriptures have all been fulfilled, completed and now we move on to the New Covenant. Jesus took on evil both in the desert and on the cross and defeated it. It wasn't the Romans who were the enemy but evil itself. The Temple was being restored in Him. People no longer had to go and make sacrifices at the Temple to be forgiven of their sins. Jesus forgave sins on the spot, saying I desire mercy not sacrifice.
This is in Matthew 13: (My highlight.)
quote:
36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." 37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world ; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom ; and the tares are the sons of the evil one
Matthew 24
quote:
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
John 12
quote:
"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
This is critical to the whole Christian message. The laws and prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures were fulfilled in Jesus. They were complete. Jesus brought a new covenant: a new era. The old was complete. Jesus was the turning point in human history.
He said this in John 13:
quote:
34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
How does this look in practice. Matthew 5:
quote:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven ; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same ? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same ? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Paul writes this in Romans 12:
quote:
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another ; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. 20 "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK ; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
The promised land is no longer just Israel. The promised land is now the world. The world is not to be taken over in our own power. The world is to be governed and ruled by a loving, servant and forgiving King through what are supposed to be His loving, servant and forgiving people empowered by His Holy Spirit. (Not doing too well in this department are we. )
Israel is today a secular country ruled by a secular government. The problems in the Middle East are political. Sure there are religious overtones but the problem is political. It is the same problem that existed throughout human history. It is the lust for power. It's all in the Old Testament and Jesus came to say that they had the model wrong. God's way of ruling is through love and servant hood, and we are being called to do that for the entire world, not just Israel. That is the model Jesus has given us for all mankind.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Buzsaw, posted 05-25-2011 11:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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