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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 87 of 263 (762120)
07-09-2015 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ramoss
06-05-2006 3:27 PM


Not A Chance
I listened to a good argument by a philosopher who essentially said that chance by definition is nothing. If chance had any probability of existing---as a concept---than God would be an anachronism.

ramoss writes:

Philosophically, chance is every reason to say there IS no designer..
From a physics point of view, the universe is governed by probabilities.. and is not deterministic. This was shown with a number of experiments.

Nope.. no need for a designer, unless you already assume a designer.

So if we flip a coin, it is commonly said that its a 50/50 chance that it lands heads.

We can look at the weight relative to the effort used to flip it. We can look at wind speed. We can look at the method used to catch it, whether it is flipped over after catching, even going into the mechanics of arm movement and type of surface the coin lands on...etc. What we cannot say is "what are the chances that the coin will ....." Chance is not a thing. Chance is nothing.

To say, for example, that the universe came about by chance is as ridiculous as saying the universe came about by nothing.

I will allow for us to explain our definitions.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2015 7:13 AM Phat has replied
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 07-09-2015 1:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 89 of 263 (762122)
07-09-2015 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
07-09-2015 7:13 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Tangle writes:

Chance is, of course 'a thing'. It's the name of the thing that describes how often a coin toss will result in heads or tails (amongst other things).

In your evidence based opinion...has there ever been a time in the history of time that nothing has existed?

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2015 7:13 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2015 8:10 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 91 of 263 (762135)
07-09-2015 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
07-09-2015 8:10 AM


Re: Not A Chance
from this website:
quote:
It is not unusual to hear people suggest that time plus chance will accomplish the evolution of simple organisms into more complex entities. There is a logical error in such statements. There is no such thing as chance. That is, chance is not an entity which causes things to happen.

In the tossing a coin we say that we can count on the coin coming up heads half the time, and tails the other half of the time. The odds are 50/50. What we forget is that one flip of the coin involves a whole chain of causal factors. The weight of the coin, the shape of the coin, the upward impulse of the toss, air resistance, spin--the initial conditions--all interact on each toss of the coin. It is a mathematical convenience to say that the probability of heads is 50% and the probability of tails is 50%. The more tosses of the coin we make the closer the spectrum will come to a pure 0.5000 probability. But every individual toss of a coin is controlled by the laws of physics. There is no mechanism called "chance" determining the outcome of any toss of the coin.


Its amazing to me how people see no difference between measurable probability and the whole idea of chance as a thing.

Edited by Phat, : speklling


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2015 8:10 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Stile, posted 07-09-2015 9:29 AM Phat has replied
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2015 9:32 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 94 of 263 (762148)
07-09-2015 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Tangle
07-09-2015 9:32 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Im not attempting to falsify evolution. I have no issues there---it is unimportant to me.

What I am trying to do is to define this thing called chance. My take on it is it does not exist.

Tangle writes:

We know that it's the occurrence of a mutation (as an example) plus selection that causes evolution and that process involves chance.

Explain how chance is involved. Do you mean that the event is entirely random?

— at random
: without definite aim, direction, rule, or method


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

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 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2015 9:32 AM Tangle has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 100 of 263 (762489)
07-12-2015 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by NoNukes
07-09-2015 1:34 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Quantum physical probabilities are fundamentally different from coin flips and dice rolls in that there are no hidden variables which govern their behavior. Some processes are inherently uncertain and no amount of prior knowledge allows us to decide their outcomes on an individual basis.
When the probability can be strictly measured, chance is a good definition. When it cannot be measured, chance becomes a sort of godless deterministic factor. We may as well say God rather than chance. Chance is a way for the human mind to understand the process...yet chance is of itself powerless to determine the process. Intelligent design makes much better sense than random design. The whole idea of we humans being the "winner of a cosmic lottery" is so much nonsense.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 07-09-2015 1:34 PM NoNukes has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 104 of 263 (787563)
07-17-2016 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
06-05-2006 10:43 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
There is a good series on the concept of chance which I listen to regularly.

Their basic premise is that chance is logical only when verified by probability. Chance in and of itself can't cause anything because chance in and of itself is not anything.
You Tube

quote:
Can something come from nothing? Was "chance" the cosmic power behind creation? Despite scientific advances, there remains an undercurrent of irrationality in scientific writing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

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 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 06-05-2006 10:43 AM mike the wiz has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 108 of 263 (787581)
07-18-2016 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
07-18-2016 12:03 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
when it comes to a dice....nothing. A dice is governed by weight, inertia, angle and force of throw, etc...and this can all be measured. Thus in the context of probability, chance is a perfectly useful and valid word.

Its when we throw phrases out there like "The universe evolved (or came into being) by chance.

First of all, it is impossible for anything to at one time not exist and then to later exist.

Out of nothing, nothing comes. And chance as used in this example has no assigned or even estimated probability...chance simply represents an unknown probability.

This is an incorrect way to think about chance and.or use the term. Chance cannot cause anything because chance is of itself nothing.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 07-18-2016 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2016 1:22 PM Phat has replied
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 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2016 4:05 PM Phat has taken no action
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 110 of 263 (787583)
07-18-2016 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
07-18-2016 1:22 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
I am not knowingly lying nor am I arrogant apart from believing through faith and considering that better than evidence. I believe that nothing happens "by chance". That is why i am a cosmological creationist. God exists.

Chance is the anti-creator in this context.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2016 1:22 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 117 of 263 (787632)
07-19-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
07-19-2016 11:41 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
If the probability is unknown, how can you dismiss it as "impossible"?

Because if there was even the slightest possibility of chance, God would be an anachronism.

quote:
God is conceived as a self-existent, eternal being who possesses intrinsically the power of being. Such power is a sufficient cause for creation. Time and chance have no being, and consequently no power. Yet they are able to be so effective as to render God an anachronism. At least with God we have a potential miracle-worker. With chance we have nothing with which to work the miracle. Chance offers us a rabbit without a hat—what's even more astonishing—without a magician.
I agree witrh the logic of this theologian. I don't mean to sound as if I dismiss science...but I am saying that I agree that neither time, space, nor chance in and of themselves as defined have the power to create anything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 07-19-2016 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2016 11:50 PM Phat has replied
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 07-20-2016 11:56 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 118 of 263 (787633)
07-19-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
07-18-2016 4:22 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Chances are I'm arrogant.(pun intended)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2016 4:22 PM PaulK has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 120 of 263 (787648)
07-20-2016 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by PaulK
07-19-2016 11:50 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
the whole point is this: His imagination is reality. There is no probability involved. Is that arrogant to state? To me it is even more arrogant for people to claim that random sequences of events produced Cosmological creation by chance. It shows that people value randomness more than belief in certainty.

ringo writes:

If the probability is unknown, how can you dismiss it as "impossible"?

Would you dismiss God as unknown? (apart from the character of legend and mythos)

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2016 11:50 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 12:41 AM Phat has replied
 Message 126 by jar, posted 07-20-2016 8:12 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 122 of 263 (787650)
07-20-2016 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
07-20-2016 12:41 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
no what I mean is that i believe that Gods imagination is reality. When God imagines, he does not dream or fantasize about what already is. He creates by imagining.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 12:41 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 12:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 124 of 263 (787652)
07-20-2016 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
07-20-2016 12:57 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
well...you have a point. But tell me...are these types of unsupported assertions the mark of arrogance simply for valuing faith over evidence?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 12:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 2:13 AM Phat has seen this message
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 129 of 263 (787687)
07-20-2016 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
07-20-2016 11:56 AM


Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
This must be your belief. I have nothing more to say.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 07-20-2016 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 07-21-2016 11:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15958
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 130 of 263 (787689)
07-20-2016 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
07-20-2016 8:12 AM


Reality 101
jar writes:

What it really shows is that people value evidence over belief. A belief, no matter how certain someone holds it should change we evidence refutes it and no belief should never be held as certain.

This is where you and I disagree.

  • Lets start with personal beliefs.
    You have always maintained your guiding precept in regards to belief is "Logic, Reason, and Reality."
    I have maintained that my belief is that there is literally a spiritual war of sorts between truth and fiction, good and evil, god and satan. You were taught: "Hell? fuggedabodit!" Having a Jewish Mother as an influence in rational thought coupled with critical thinking professors at an Episcopal boarding school also contributed to your rejection of the standard party lines, sound-bites, and precepts of modern day Christianity. You state:
    quote:
    I happen to subscribe to the dogma as out lined in the Nicene Creed but I do not pretend that it is reasonable, logical, rational or understandable.
    Thus you believe that your faith is irrational. You have provided no evidence that your faith and/or belief includes the idea that God is even approachable. You continually ask "How do we know....." which I can respect in regards to engaging educated skeptics and unbelievers in rational discussions regarding this whole "God" thing....but it is perhaps not the best way to approach belief because you value evidence over belief. So do most of them, however.

  • Then we have the Bible.
    You say:
    You would think that if the Bible actually was the inerrant word of God there would at least be one universal list of what books would be included.
    Thus humans have always disagreed what authority scripture and sacred writings actually have. You have also mentioned a time or two that
    I don't reject Bible verses; I just point out that the way people use them does not lead to something reasonable, logical understandable or rational.
    . We get it. In your opinion the concept of belief in general is irrational. I believe differently. I believe that belief is stronger than evidence.

    You mention this to be akin to foolishness. While I admit that many of the CCOI need a good dose of critical thinking and a healthy understanding of reality, I also believe we all could be wrong about what reality actually is.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 126 by jar, posted 07-20-2016 8:12 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 131 by jar, posted 07-20-2016 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message

      
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